Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[ahinton]

The narrative of the whole horrors of the third Reich and the second world war doesn't start at Auschwitz.

Indeed; nor, for that matter, does it end there.

[amateur51]

How do you know that? Do please tell us.

After 22 years in the Military, I am in touch with a large proportion of former colleagues, both from the Music Branch and the wider RAF, and indeed Army; and every one of them has re-settled perfectly well, and without problems, into most civilian careers, everything from teacher, to musician, to National Park ranger, to Paramedic, to Chef.

I speak from personal experience. What do you speak from?

Can you explain therefrom why it is that in survey after survey of people living homeless on the streets of London and others cities, people living in nightshelters, rehab projects and follow-on accommodation, ex-service personnel are disproportionately represented? And this is not a new problem. If I recall correctly it was the subject of research by Crisis in the 1990s.

The first and obvious point is that these people will not be among Mr Pee's friendship cohort.

These people have been used by the armed forces and thus the State, and have been discarded as homeless & jobless. It is a national disgrace.

[Flosshilde]

Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pee View Post
How do you know that? Do please tell us.

After 22 years in the Military, I am in touch with a large proportion of former colleagues, both from the Music Branch and the wider RAF, and indeed Army; and every one of them has re-settled perfectly well, and without problems, into most civilian careers, everything from teacher, to musician, to National Park ranger, to Paramedic, to Chef.

I speak from personal experience. What do you speak from?

Can you explain therefrom why it is that in survey after survey of people living homeless on the streets of London and others cities, people living in nightshelters, rehab projects and follow-on accommodation, ex-service personnel are disproportionately represented? And this is not a new problem. If I recall correctly it was the subject of research by Crisis in the 1990s.

The first and obvious point is that these people will not be among Mr Pee's friendship cohort.

These people have been used by the armed forces and thus the State, and have been discarded as homeless & jobless. It is a national disgrace.

That's the trouble with basing your opinions on personal experience only - it's usually restricted; in Mr Pee's case very restricted

[MrGongGong]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/royal-marine-convicted-of-murdering-afghan-insurgent-named-as-sgt-alexander-blackman-8985102.html

[ahinton]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...n-8985102.html

Thank you for this. So now we know the man's identity (not that I was especially bothered to do so), which answers a number of points made earlier about his anonymity. This looks very much like a gross cock-up on top of what's already at the very least a major embarrassment for MoD. Let us now hope that, in the sentencing tomorrow, due justice will prevail. A more detailed account of the revelation of "Marine A"'s identity will be found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25232808.

[MrGongGong]

Thank you for this. So now we know the man's identity (not that I was especially bothered to do so), which answers a number of points made earlier about his anonymity. This looks very much like a gross cock-up on top of what's already at the very least a major embarrassment for MoD. Let us now hope that, in the sentencing tomorrow, due justice will prevail. A more detailed account of the revelation of "Marine A"'s identity will be found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25232808.

Let's hope
This is, historically, a big change. In the past he would have been able to hide behind anonymity for ever.

[Ferretfancy]

Can you explain therefrom why it is that in survey after survey of people living homeless on the streets of London and others cities, people living in nightshelters, rehab projects and follow-on accommodation, ex-service personnel are disproportionately represented? And this is not a new problem. If I recall correctly it was the subject of research by Crisis in the 1990s.

The first and obvious point is that these people will not be among Mr Pee's friendship cohort.

These people have been used by the armed forces and thus the State, and have been discarded as homeless & jobless. It is a national disgrace.

It is indeed a national disgrace, but we are not alone. If you visit the Vietnam Memorial in Washington you will find surviving relatives taking their loved ones names from the 60,000 on the wall, while a handful of ageing veterans of the war try to raise money for welfare. This is a lost war that the Americans try to forget, and ignore the needs of their soldiers in the process.

London has now many posters asking people not to give to people on the streets, suggesting that it only makes for greater dependancy and a longer time sleeping rough, but where is the state's effort to make changes ? We should not be relying on charity to keep people alive, either at Christmas or any other time of the year.

[amateur51]

It is indeed a national disgrace, but we are not alone. If you visit the Vietnam Memorial in Washington you will find surviving relatives taking their loved ones names from the 60,000 on the wall, while a handful of ageing veterans of the war try to raise money for welfare. This is a lost war that the Americans try to forget, and ignore the needs of their soldiers in the process.

London has now many posters asking people not to give to people on the streets, suggesting that it only makes for greater dependancy and a longer time sleeping rough, but where is the state's effort to make changes ? We should not be relying on charity to keep people alive, either at Christmas or any other time of the year.

Good point about Vietnam Vets, Ferret :ok:

Friends who are just back from Vietnam were telling me that there is still lots of unexploded US ordnance hidden in Vietnam. Surely accoring to natural justice the USA should now be charged with rdetection and removal of said ordnance and should meet the cost of same? It should also meet the costs of caring for those injured by this ordnance after the end of the war.

[MrGongGong]

Now this is a surprise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25271157

Not something to be happy about BUT it would seem to be justice for a terrible crime.

[amateur51]

Now this is a surprise

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25271157

Not something to be happy about BUT it would seem to be justice for a terrible crime.

Agreed MrGG.

The statement of the court included:

"We also accept the psychiatric evidence presented today that when you killed the insurgent it was likely that you were suffering to some degree from combat stress disorder.

"While we acknowledge your personal circumstances and the immense pressure you were under, we note that thousands of other service personnel have experienced the same or similar stresses.

"They exercised self-discipline and acted properly and humanely; you did not."

Furthermore it said that the marine had provided "ammunition" for Islamist terrorists who would use the case in propaganda. "That could seriously undermine the reputation of British forces and ultimately the mission in Afghanistan."

[ahinton]

Agreed MrGG.

The statement of the court included:

"We also accept the psychiatric evidence presented today that when you killed the insurgent it was likely that you were suffering to some degree from combat stress disorder.

"While we acknowledge your personal circumstances and the immense pressure you were under, we note that thousands of other service personnel have experienced the same or similar stresses.

"They exercised self-discipline and acted properly and humanely; you did not."

Furthermore it said that the marine had provided "ammunition" for Islamist terrorists who would use the case in propaganda. "That could seriously undermine the reputation of British forces and ultimately the mission in Afghanistan."

He's gotten off pretty lightly in my view but, having said so, I hold no brief for the woeful lack of support that he and his colleagues are customarily given while on active service and afterwards.

[MrGongGong]

He's gotten off pretty lightly in my view but, having said so, I hold no brief for the woeful lack of support that he and his colleagues are customarily given while on active service and afterwards.

We were discussing this earlier this evening and the folks I was with all shared the view that you express. In some ways what he did was worse than most murderers who do act impulsively and often while under the influence. Here is a man who is so highly trained that he is trusted with weapons capable of devastating effects along with training that is supposedly designed to equip him with the ability to make good decisions in the knowledge of the legal framework of the Geneva convention. Contrast that with other cases of murder. This is a terrible thing indeed as is the "woeful lack of support".

[ahinton]

We were discussing this earlier this evening and the folks I was with all shared the view that you express. In some ways what he did was worse than most murderers who do act impulsively and often while under the influence. Here is a man who is so highly trained that he is trusted with weapons capable of devastating effects along with training that is supposedly designed to equip him with the ability to make good decisions in the knowledge of the legal framework of the Geneva convention. Contrast that with other cases of murder. This is a terrible thing indeed as is the "woeful lack of support".

We're clearly on the same wavelength here. The issue, from the legal standpoint, however, is - I think - that the murder and the circusmtances surrounding it are one entity and the shortcomings in training and support from the employer are another - i.e. in the sense of being a separate legal issue. Whilst I doubt that the convicted murderer would stand much of a chance of suing his employer over such shortcomings on its part to the extent that they affected him, that does not of itself exonerate the armed forces from all responsibility in the matter. I imagine that only a judicial review would work here, though quite who would assume responsibility for mounting such a case against the government in the guise of a branch of its armed services - and what success if any he/she might have with this - is clearly open to question.

[MrGongGong]

To return to the title of the thread.
It's "interesting" to note how much coverage there is in some media of support for this man.
Even on the BBC news last night there was an interview with a friend of his , contrast that with the coverage of other high profile convicted murderers.

[ahinton]

To return to the title of the thread.
It's "interesting" to note how much coverage there is in some media of support for this man.
Even on the BBC news last night there was an interview with a friend of his , contrast that with the coverage of other high profile convicted murderers.

Actually, MrGG, the title of the thread is "Poppies and the Heroes Industry"!

Anyway, yes, there's even a petition being run to have him released, which is surely about as absurd as it gets and I've not looked it up but undesand that it's already attracted at least 30,000 signatures. Some "hero"!