Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[ahinton]

What did I say about 'no matter how technically right' we may be?

I'm wondering rather less what you said about this but why you included it in what you said in the first place; any attempted implication that pacifists, by virtue of being pacifists, somehow have less rights to remember war dead than non-pacifists is both unworthy and dangerous, not least because pacifists are at least as affected by the horrors and outcomes of war as are the rest of us...

[Beef Oven!]

Quite - and the composer of A Child of our Time was also a pacifist and, unlike that of the War Requiem but like that of Border Boyhood (commissioned for and premièred at Aldeburgh by Peter Pears), was imprisoned for it; should the works of known pacifists be sidelined on the grounds of alleged incompatibility with the act of remembering those who died on active service in, or otherwise as victims of, a war?

Britten was, and always will be a part of my life. But Tippett is the true man among men. He went to prison for his beliefs - Britten went to America. As much as I love Britten, I wish he'd handled it differently.

[MrGongGong]

What did I say about 'no matter how technically right' we may be?

Are you deliberately being difficult, or do you just not understand the issue?

I think those who seek to create a society where (and i'm avoiding the F,M,C, PC etc words that some like to chuck about !) where there is only ONE way that we are allowed to remember things are maybe failing to understand completely.
Why not ban ALL works by Tippet (see above) and Britten et al for being "disloyal" ? (i'm sure there are many who would see no problem with that at all !!! ).......

I thought you 'libertarians' were in favour of folk being able to express their views ? Some effing 'liberty' that is !

[ahinton]

Britten was, and always will be a part of my life. But Tippett is the true man among men. He went to prison for his beliefs - Britten went to America. As much as I love Britten, I wish he'd handled it differently.

Whilst appreciating your sentiments about Tippett in this context, I don't think that Britten actually went to America for his beliefs! Yes, Britten might well have handled it differently (one might say the same for Richard Strauss), but not all pacifists have equal, let alone identical, courage any more than do non-pacifists!

[ahinton]

I think those who seek to create a society where (and i'm avoiding the F,M,C, PC etc words that some like to chuck about !) where there is only ONE way that we are allowed to remember things are maybe failing to understand completely.

Indeed so.

Why not ban ALL works by Tippet (see above) and Britten et al for being "disloyal" ? (i'm sure there are many who would see no problem with that at all!!!)

Tippett, please! - but I imagine that many people would see a very big problem indeed in banning the works of those two composes on the grounds of alleged "disloyalty" on their respective parts! One might as well expect the works of all Scottish composers to be banned from public performance and broadast in Britain post-referendum on similar trumped-up grounds of "disloyalty" if the results of that vote turn out to favour of Scottish independence!

Curiously, the only British composer whose music actually was banned - albeit only briefly and only on BBC - during WWII was Tippett's older friend Alan Bush and it was the intervention of that pillar of the establishment Vaughan Williams that mercifully put a swift end to that.

[Beef Oven!]

I think those who seek to create a society where (and i'm avoiding the F,M,C, PC etc words that some like to chuck about !) where there is only ONE way that we are allowed to remember things are maybe failing to understand completely.
Why not ban ALL works by Tippet (see above) and Britten et al for being "disloyal" ? (i'm sure there are many who would see no problem with that at all !!! ).......

I thought you 'libertarians' were in favour of folk being able to express their views ? Some effing 'liberty' that is !

You are very hard work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis_(process)

[MrGongGong]

You are very hard work.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis_(process)

And your link includes a reference to Kierkegaard :LAUGH: .........and :LAUGH:

Praxis is also used in schools of community education, basically, practice and reflection.

So let's leave out the reflection bit as it's not really necessary these days !


(Sorry about that Sir Michael I know it should be Tippett ! )

[Beef Oven!]

And your link includes a reference to Kierkegaard :LAUGH: .........and :LAUGH:




So let's leave out the reflection bit as it's not really necessary these days !


(Sorry about that Sir Michael I know it should be Tippett ! )

You know that urge you get from time to time about saving me from kipperdom?

I'm getting that sort feeling trying to redeem you from the Philistines!!

[MrGongGong]

You know that urge you get from time to time about saving me from kipperdom?

I'm getting that sort feeling trying to redeem you from the Philistines!!

I wonder how much discussion of Kierkegaard goes on at the kipper meets ? (or should that be a shoal ?)
I once advised someone who was very clever from going to a particular University as thy would be the most intelligent person there and it's always good to hang out for 3 years with people who are more intelligent than you are.......... (make of that what you will, i'm sure you will anyway ;-) ) ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF9UMona74w is more like it Praxis wise

[Beef Oven!]

[QUOTE=MrGongGong;351176]I wonder how much discussion of Kierkegaard goes on at the kipper meets ? (or should that be a shoal ?)
I once advised someone who was very clever from going to a particular University as thy would be the most intelligent person there and it's always good to hang out for 3 years with people who are more intelligent than you are.......... (make of that what you will, i'm sure you will anyway ;-) ) ........



Your comment went over my head, just like a KFC bargain bucket. Then I made my mind up as to what it meant ;-)

Now please foxtrot Oscar, I wanna listen to this..........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnC-RKm12ZI

[vinteuil]

I'm afraid I can't see this as being anything but nakedly contrarian.

Let us concede that life at the front is hugely stressful, and accept what the military say: that it doesn't get any easier the longer you have to experience it. Let us concede that, in the brutality of combat, seeing comrades killed by 'the enemy' is emotionally difficult to bear. Let us imagine all the anger and grief that builds up inside. And then you are faced with someone who personifies everything that you have been fighting for and against.

To shoot, in cold blood, an injured man whose individual 'guilt' is unknown, and then be sufficiently in control of yourself to admit that you have just deliberately flouted international law - that is straightforward murder. It was a war crime. The very least one can do is allow the law, taking all circumstances into consideration, to take its course. If one asks for clemency in this case, why not in any other? What are the extenuating circumstances here that don't normally apply in other war situations governed by the Geneva Convention?

French Frank gives, as one would expect, compelling reasons why the normal course of law should run its course.

But there are further, military, reasons why there should be no particular clemency, but rather that the sentence should be seen to be exemplary.

In battle it is important that there should be a degree of 'trust' operating between opponents. If side x (which might be "us" or might be "them") finds themselves worsted in a skirmish, they may wish to surrender. They will only surrender if they have a reasonable expectation of being treated reasonably, ie treated along the lines of the current Geneva Conventions. If they have no trust that the other side will behave in this way they have no reason to behave reasonably : they may well emerge with white flags but subsequently fire upon their captors.

If the British Army is seen to be cavalier in these matters, the next time our opponents are worsted in a skirmish, they (our foes) will feel no reason to behave as we would hope them to behave.

It is in the interests of our own forces that those among our military who have behaved so unconscionably should be seen to receive the fullest possible penalty for their crimes.

[amateur51]

There are two types of people in this life, builders and destroyers. The destroyers always seem to suffer from low self-esteem. Maybe we can do something about that and we will all be happier.

Oh you're taking my language here Oxo, having been involved in various emancipatory struggles in this country for 40 years or so. Having seen the implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act, decriminalisation of homosexuality, legalisation of abortion and divorce, Equal Pay Act, the Lawrence Inquiry, the equalisation of the age of consent, the abolition of section 28 and now the arrival of equal marriage, I know very well that the glass is half full.

However these incremental victories were not won without making a fuss or creating a stramash. At various stages citizens may have had to break the law, create a peaceful civil disturbance, or shout down the Archbishop of Canterbury from his pulpit to draw attention to the cause in question.Being nice all the time, going 'after you Claude, no after you Cecil' constantly didn't get anyone anywhere.

[Richard Barrett]

There are two types of people in this life

Deep and meaningless.

Or as Captain Beefheart said, "there are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers."

[Beef Oven!]

Oh you're taking my language here Oxo, having been involved in various emancipatory struggles in this country for 40 years or so. Having seen the implementation of the Disability Discrimination Act, decriminalisation of homosexuality, legalisation of abortion and divorce, Equal Pay Act, the Lawrence Inquiry, the equalisation of the age of consent, the abolition of section 28 and now the arrival of equal marriage, I know very well that the glass is half full.

However these incremental victories were not won without making a fuss or creating a stramash. At various stages citizens may have had to break the law, create a peaceful civil disturbance, or shout down the Archbishop of Canterbury from his pulpit to draw attention to the cause in question.Being nice all the time, going 'after you Claude, no after you Cecil' constantly didn't get anyone anywhere.

Lighten up for God's sake. You're like a superannuated Morrissey (Morrissey's like a superannuated Morrissey these days!)

[Beef Oven!]

Deep and meaningless.

Or as Captain Beefheart said, "there are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers."

Any of them colour-coded?