Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[teamsaint]

For many people, it may not be, although I would be interested to know how many. For most people, it is just that.

do you mean "For most people who wear one?"

Anyway, for me, the poppy represents the interests of the Establishment. The class structure, Church, the military, the crown. All those things that are set in stone in Whitehall.
For me, the poppy feels all wrong. That doesn't mean any disrespect to those who suffered in the wars, or whose opinions are different.

[jean]

The comparison is uncomfortable, but not, I think, distasteful. The comparison is appropriate - as is the example of the use of the pink triangle by the gay movement...in the '70s & '80s.

I think you've forgotten the original point, which was that attempting to reclaim the swastika wasn't likely to be a success. See #42.

But the swastika is originally a Hindu symbol (if you visit India you'll see it all over the place) which is what I suppose appealed to Hitler as he saw the Indians as Aryans. The parallel with the poppy in any of its meanings is way off the mark.

Oh, & the poppy appeal isn't run by or for the British Legion but the Earl Haig Fund...

Same thing.

[jean]

We were told to "rejoice" in the killing of Argentinian teenage conscripts...

By Margaret Thatcher, not the C of E.

There's a difference.

...Shockwaves...went through the British establishment when, at the service to mark the conclusion of the war in the Falklands, [Archbishop Runcie] remembered the Argentinian war dead, much to the reported fury of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher...

[amateur51]

Easily. I do not have to believe in same sex marriage, to abhor unjustified discrimination. The fact that you had to ask the question in post #54 demonstrates that you do not have the same honest, flexible outlook on life.

P.S. If you thought my comment was offensive, you should have said so when you replied to it, not now. You are being slippery.

You don't believe in same sex marriage? - it exists! :smiley:

I'll reply to you as and when and how I mean to, thanks.If you choose to misconstrue it, that's your choice.

[Beef Oven!]

I'll reply to you as and when and how I mean to, thanks.

Lol!!! Is this the amsy tough-talk!!? ;winkeye

[amateur51]

do you mean "For most people who wear one?"

Anyway, for me, the poppy represents the interests of the Establishment. The class structure, Church, the military, the crown. All those things that are set in stone in Whitehall.
For me, the poppy feels all wrong. That doesn't mean any disrespect to those who suffered in the wars, or whose opinions are different.

For decades lesbian and gay former members of Britain's armed service were prevented by the British Legion from laying a wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday. When they finally relented Sharley Maclean, who has just died aged 90, and Peter Tatchell laid a wreath and the sky did not fall in.

http://lgbthistorymonth.org.uk/uncategorized/sharley-maclean-1923-2013/

Now I just can't bring myself to wear a red poppy while that illegal war-monger Blair struts about wearing his. He brought shame and disgrace to this country and to the poppy. Hundreds of thousands of people, both military and civilians died because of his deluded hubris. and what happened to his royalties from his memoirs? He tried to buy some respite from the criticism of his war-mongering by handing them over to The British Legion.

[amateur51]

Lol!!! Is this the amsy tough-talk!!? ;winkeye

A nice direct and assertive statement of my position, none of your passive-aggression.

[Beef Oven!]

none of your passive-aggression.

Well done keep it up - all that passive-aggressive stuff lets you down a bit anyway.

[Flosshilde]

I think you've forgotten the original point, which was that attempting to reclaim the swastika wasn't likely to be a success. See #42.

The point being, I assume, that if everyone thinks they know what a symbol means they won't learn about the new (or in the swastika's case, the old) meaning. The advantage of the pink triangle, for example, was that nobody knew what it meant, so they asked, & I was then able to discuss it with them. Everybody thinks they know what the poppy means & therefore wouldn't ask about it, depriving the wearer the opportunity of explaining why they were wearing it.

But perhaps the underlying message of the story about the re-invention of the swastika is that it doesn't matter what the wearer of the symbol means by it, be it a poppy or a swastika, it's what the viewer thinks it means that matters. & I think that the establishment that wants me to wear one has a very different view of it than I would have, & by wearing it I would appear, to them, to be endorsing their view.

[MrGongGong]

By Margaret Thatcher, not the C of E.

There's a difference.

...Shockwaves...went through the British establishment when, at the service to mark the conclusion of the war in the Falklands, [Archbishop Runcie] remembered the Argentinian war dead, much to the reported fury of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher...

Not in the church I went to...... who along with many in the establishment castigated the Archbishop for being a "traitor" ...... and I went and got my coat

But perhaps the underlying message of the story about the re-invention of the swastika is that it doesn't matter what the wearer of the symbol means by it, be it a poppy or a swastika, it's what the viewer thinks it means that matters. & I think that the establishment that wants me to wear one has a very different view of it than I would have, & by wearing it I would appear, to them, to be endorsing their view.

Absolutely

(and if it's fine for Owen to call something an "old lie" then it's fine by me , we did go to the same institution after all , though his old school was part of the art college when I was there...... )

[jean]

(and if it's fine for Owen to call something an "old lie" then it's fine by me...)

And well done to him for exposing the lie.

But since he exposed it - since the First World War was recognised for the appalling purposeless carnage that it was - has anyone dared to quote dulce et decorum est pro patria mori other than with the bitterest irony?

.

[Padraig]

Even with your edit, jean, you don't need to understand Latin to recognise the noble sentiment of dying bravely in battle - let me like a soldier fall- which I think Horace was trying to express.

[jean]

But perhaps the underlying message of the story about the re-invention of the swastika is that it doesn't matter what the wearer of the symbol means by it, be it a poppy or a swastika, it's what the viewer thinks it means that matters. & I think that the establishment that wants me to wear one has a very different view of it than I would have, & by wearing it I would appear, to them, to be endorsing their view.

To which I can only reply that, in contrast to the pink triange and the swastika, the only meaning you can attach to poppy-wearing is your own.

I used to rather ostentatiously wear a white poppy, until I began to feel uncomfortable about making a statement about other people's reasons for what they did that I could not possibly know.

[vinteuil]

... the swastika is originally a Hindu symbol (if you visit India you'll see it all over the place) which is what I suppose appealed to Hitler as he saw the Indians as Aryans...

... early editions of Kipling have the Hindu symbol of the svastika. Once the Nazi party adopted it, Kipling removed the symbol from all his works.

"Kipling was so disgusted by the Nazis and the sight of their flag that he removed the swastika, a Hindu symbol of good luck, from his bookbindings. It had been his trademark for nearly forty years but it was now 'defiled beyond redemption'."

https://www.kipling.org.uk/facts_swastik.htm

[jean]

Even with your edit, jean, you don't need to understand Latin to recognise the noble sentiment of dying bravely in battle - let me like a soldier fall- which I think Horace was trying to express.

I think it's the pro patria we question these days - and rightly so.