Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[MrGongGong]

I thought this was very well put

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/poppycock--or-why-remembrance-rituals-make-me-see-red-8927751.html

[teamsaint]

Thanks for posting that Gongers.
Its wonderful that there are people around who have the ability to express their thoughts so powerfully and cogently.

Music can do the same job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr6OzLJrS2k

[Mr Pee]

Well Mr.GG, once again I am reminded why I have put you on ignore and I am cursing myself by breaking my own rule and choosing to view your post, simply because the title of your thread immediately got my blood boiling. As an ex-forces man myself, I know how much Remembrance weekend means to those who served in the forces,and to their families, in war time and peacetime. You only need stand at the Cenotaph on Sunday, as I have done many times, or in the Albert Hall on Saturday evening as the Poppies fall from the roof, to understand that.

But you never will, because you seek to cheapen everything with your cynicism. You cannot accept that people wear their Poppies as a mark of respect and remembrance for those who have died, and are dying still. This is not about politics. It is about showing respect and remembering for those who have died in the service of our country. It is as simple as that. And of course the Poppy Appeal raises large sums of money which go toward the work of the British Legion to care for veterans, and the families of those deceased and gravely injured. Oh, and your columnist is wrong- Remembrance Sunday is for the dead of ALL wars,as he should know if he had bothered to pay the slightest attention. If he can't even get such a basic fact right, he should stay in his ivory tower and not trouble us with his reprehensible views.

It is what- two weeks in the year, if that, when you and your ilk have to put with this offensive display of Remembrance, and every year, the same shit comes out from the same quarters.

I'll tell you what, matey:- An RAF Policeman that I knew was killed in Iraq. Why don't I introduce you to his parents, so that you can try this spiel on them. Perhaps then you would understand.....

Christ I am glad I have you on ignore, but I just had to respond to this. You should be ashamed of yourself, and so should that pathetic excuse for a journalist.

Although I am kicking myself for viewing your post, I promise you I shan't make the same mistake again.

[MrGongGong]

Well mr Pee
you seem to have a problem with the English language
as the word "IGNORE" surely means something other than what you are doing
so how about you just piss off and go and watch men in penis substitutes driving round and round in a meaningless way

or to use current parlance just "fuck right off"

The really sad thing is that your mate in the RAF police died so that we in the west can have cheap oil , which I guess is a just cause for you and your love of F1 but to many of us (and many in the forces) it is a meaningless waste of someones life

[Flosshilde]

people wear their Poppies as a mark of respect and remembrance for those who have died, and are dying still.

I don't think that the writer is disputing that - what he is saying is that it's based on a fallacy.

Remembrance Sunday is for the dead of ALL wars, as he should know if he had bothered to pay the slightest attention.

Nothing he says suggests he doesn't understand that. However, his thoughts were prompted by connections with the first Great (sic) War. As for being for the dead of all wars, it certainly isn't for all the dead, or hasn't been until very recently. Has it 'remembered' the 'enemy' dead? Did the authorities responsible for the ceremony allow a wreath to be laid remembering those shot for 'desertion', for the lesbians & gay men killed in Nazi concentration camps?

Although I am kicking myself for viewing your post,

I do the same when I break my own rules & look at one of your pathetic contributions (although I do admit that this one is rather more eloquent than most - albeit making as little sense)

[ahinton]

Well Mr.GG, once again I am reminded why I have put you on ignore and I am cursing myself by breaking my own rule and choosing to view your post, simply because the title of your thread immediately got my blood boiling. As an ex-forces man myself, I know how much Remembrance weekend means to those who served in the forces,and to their families, in war time and peacetime. You only need stand at the Cenotaph on Sunday, as I have done many times, or in the Albert Hall on Saturday evening as the Poppies fall from the roof, to understand that.

But you never will, because you seek to cheapen everything with your cynicism. You cannot accept that people wear their Poppies as a mark of respect and remembrance for those who have died, and are dying still. This is not about politics. It is about showing respect and remembering for those who have died in the service of our country. It is as simple as that. And of course the Poppy Appeal raises large sums of money which go toward the work of the British Legion to care for veterans, and the families of those deceased and gravely injured. Oh, and your columnist is wrong- Remembrance Sunday is for the dead of ALL wars,as he should know if he had bothered to pay the slightest attention. If he can't even get such a basic fact right, he should stay in his ivory tower and not trouble us with his reprehensible views.

It is what- two weeks in the year, if that, when you and your ilk have to put with this offensive display of Remembrance, and every year, the same shit comes out from the same quarters.

I'll tell you what, matey:- An RAF Policeman that I knew was killed in Iraq. Why don't I introduce you to his parents, so that you can try this spiel on them. Perhaps then you would understand.....

Christ I am glad I have you on ignore, but I just had to respond to this. You should be ashamed of yourself, and so should that pathetic excuse for a journalist.

Although I am kicking myself for viewing your post, I promise you I shan't make the same mistake again.

I think that the author of the article makes some very pertinent points pretty much throughout his piece. What he does not do, nevertheless, is convince me that poppy wearing is the popppycock that he claims it to be - and as to Flossie's point about remembering the "enemy" dead and the lesbians, gays, etc. who died in concentration camps, the wearing of the poppy for me as a token of remembrance includes everyone who met their end in as as a direxct consequence of all wars because that's what it means to me - and if that breaks any so-called "rules", so be it.

War is indeed a most shameful waste of life - a shameful waste of human resource - and the wearing the poppy at this time of year is a stark reminder to me of how utterly shameful it has been and indeed continues to be that the lessons of WWI in particular have simply not been learnt. In summary, then, the article has much going for it - almost everything, that is, except its principal thrust; poppy wearing should serve not only as an act of remembrance but also as a salutary reminder and warning call because it is an act of remembrance. Broadly speaking, I disagree with you about the journalist but I agree with you wholeheartedly about poppy wearing, even if perhaps not quite for the same reasons as you uphold this tradition.

[MrGongGong]

. Oh, and your columnist is wrong- Remembrance Sunday is for the dead of ALL wars,as he should know if he had bothered to pay the slightest attention. .

This is what many people , myself included, find so objectionable.
When I was young , like many people born in the 1960's I was very aware of relative who had died and been injured in the First World War, I knew very well someone who had been at the Somme and talked about being gassed and all of that of which we are so familiar. As the inevitable happened and that generation died followed by those who had fought in WW2 it seems that the 'Poppy Day' idea was in danger of dying with them so it was expanded to include soldiers from all wars (but only the right soldiers ? ) .... To me , and to many others, there is a huge difference between a teenage conscript from rural Norfolk being slaughtered at Paschendale and professional soldiers going about the world doing the 'dirty work' of immoral politicians. It's not that the death of ANYONE is unimportant to those who know them BUT that there is a huge difference.

People who talk about (as mrPee does) about it being about the dead of "ALL wars" are lying, are they going to remember the concentration camp guards, the IRA, Pol Pot etc ? I doubt it. But they will include those like the soldiers who murdered innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday because they are on the "right" side and therefore (to use current terminology) are all "Heroes" who need our "Help".

To lump everyone together in this way and to try (as with anyone appearing on BBC TV) to suggest that to express an alternative opinion is somehow some kind of "traitor" is ignorant and stupid.

and on a technical matter ....... how can those who like to play the childhood game of "i'm ignoring you" see things written by those they are ignoring ? (I can work it out easily enough)

I posted the original link because I thought the article had some articulate things to say that's all

[Flosshilde]

War is indeed a most shameful waste of life - a shameful waste of human resource - and the wearing the poppy at this time of year is a stark reminder to me of how utterly shameful it has been and indeed continues to be that the lessons of WWI in particular have simply not been learnt.

I can understand that; perhaps wearing a white poppy would be a way of doing so, witrhout 'buying in' to the whole 'heroes' bit. One aspect of the Poppy industry (& if you doubt that it is an industry just look at the tat you can buy from the on-line shop) I found particularly repellent was the way in which colleagues came round at work selling them - it was a form of moral blackmail & made it very difficult to refuse.
If one believes that it is appropriate that a charity rather than the state should provide care for people injured in the state's dirty wars then a donation can be given without buying, or wearing, a poppy.

[ahinton]

This is what many people , myself included, find so objectionable.
When I was young , like many people born in the 1960's I was very aware of relative who had died and been injured in the First World War, I knew very well someone who had been at the Somme and talked about being gassed and all of that of which we are so familiar. As the inevitable happened and that generation died followed by those who had fought in WW2 it seems that the 'Poppy Day' idea was in danger of dying with them so it was expanded to include soldiers from all wars (but only the right soldiers ? ) .... To me , and to many others, there is a huge difference between a teenage conscript from rural Norfolk being slaughtered at Paschendale and professional soldiers going about the world doing the 'dirty work' of immoral politicians. It's not that the death of ANYONE is unimportant to those who know them BUT that there is a huge difference.

People who talk about (as mrPee does) about it being about the dead of "ALL wars" are lying, are they going to remember the concentration camp guards, the IRA, Pol Pot etc ? I doubt it. But they will include those like the soldiers who murdered innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday because they are on the "right" side and therefore (to use current terminology) are all "Heroes" who need our "Help".

To lump everyone together in this way and to try (as with anyone appearing on BBC TV) to suggest that to express an alternative opinion is somehow some kind of "traitor" is ignorant and stupid.

and on a technical matter ....... how can those who like to play the childhood game of "i'm ignoring you" see things written by those they are ignoring ? (I can work it out easily enough)

I posted the original link because I thought the article had some articulate things to say that's all

I think that it does as well, but I'm afraid that I must broadly disagree with you and agree with Mr Pee about this; yes, of course remembering all dead from all wars has to be done if one is to have any kind of remembrance at all and yes, that does include "concentration camp guards, the IRA, Pol Pot" and, if one accepts that this is as it should be, it should focus the minds of those remembering upon "professional soldiers going about the world doing the 'dirty work' of immoral politicians" because, once a war is in "progress", whether anyone fighting in it is a career armed forces person, a volunteer or a conscript makes little difference in principle to what they're doing or why they're doing it - all wars involve people, professionals and others, "doing the 'dirty work'" of immoral politicians, even if the immoral politicians are those of the enemy. Once a war gets going, both/all sides get involved in actions that run counter to civilised human activity, so any immorality spreads thereby to every participant.

As to where the money from the sale of poppies goes, I see no reason for the proceeds of UK sales to go anywhere other than to charities taking care of people in Britain; those who do the same kind of thing in other countries can look after their own in the same ways. The point, however, is that remembrance can and should embrace everyone involved in wars past and present who have lost their lives while serving in them and I see no inherent incompatibility between remembering all war dead and allocating funds from poppy sales solely to charities in one's own country. Mr Pee must speak for himself, of course but, in the meantime, I do not believe that you have any business referring to him and those who share his view on this as "liars"; you might disagree with him/them, but that does not make them "liars".

[ahinton]

I can understand that; perhaps wearing a white poppy would be a way of doing so, witrhout 'buying in' to the whole 'heroes' bit. One aspect of the Poppy industry (& if you doubt that it is an industry just look at the tat you can buy from the on-line shop) I found particularly repellent was the way in which colleagues came round at work selling them - it was a form of moral blackmail & made it very difficult to refuse.
If one believes that it is appropriate that a charity rather than the state should provide care for people injured in the state's dirty wars then a donation can be given without buying, or wearing, a poppy.

Your white poppy ideaas is, I think, a good one. I do not, however, believe that responsibility for caring for those injured in wars should be left to charities alone; if doing so isn't immoral, I'm not quite sure what is. The trouble is that if all poppy sale revenue were to be collected as tax by government instead, it would not be hard to imagine that little of it would ever find itself allocated for the work now done by charities.

There is no "heroism" in war, other than isolated cases of individuals' courageous acts; those aside, "war" and "heroism" are antonymous. That does not, however, signify any kind of excuse not to remember the dead of all wars.

[Richard Barrett]

An RAF Policeman that I knew was killed in Iraq. Why don't I introduce you to his parents, so that you can try this spiel on them.

Assuming you aren't ignoring me as well (not that it seems to make any difference), the thing is that there are many, including me and probably MrGG too, who would not flinch at doing so. The sooner all the mythology of heroism and "serving one's country" (ie. serving the ruling class of one's country) is cleared out of the way and replaced by a more general awareness of the actual reasons why wars take place, we might be a step nearer ensuring that they stop heppening. The poppy industry is a public-relations exercise for war. Of course veterans should be looked after, but not by glorifying the human slaughter they got caught up in.

[MrGongGong]

Mr Pee must speak for himself, of course but, in the meantime, I do not believe that you have any business referring to him and those who share his view on this as "liars"; you might disagree with him/them, but that does not make them "liars".

It is (IMV) a lie that the Poppy is in memory of ALL those killed in ALL wars , it might not have been the intention but it seems to me (and many others) that it has become something else.
At the end of WW1 there was a glimpse that the world could change for the better, the way in which ALL the headstones in the war graves are the same regardless of the "rank" of the person was something that was fought for against the establishment (so i am reliably told). It's a shame that the humanity that created this has been lost in a load of jingoistic celebration of our supposed "superiority".

[ahinton]

It is (IMV) a lie that the Poppy is in memory of ALL those killed in ALL wars , it might not have been the intention but it seems to me (and many others) that it has become something else.

No - it's what anyone wants to make and and make of it. One does not have to subscribe to received ideas about what the poppy supposedly stands for in order to purchase one and have the proceeds allocated to a charity to care for those injured in wars.

At the end of WW1 there was a glimpse that the world could change for the better, the way in which ALL the headstones in the war graves are the same regardless of the "rank" of the person was something that was fought for against the establishment (so I am reliably told). It's a shame that the humanity that created this has been lost in a load of jingoistic celebration of our supposed "superiority".

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make. I cannot stand jingoism and I do not see the act of buying a poppy as drawing me into that disgusting charade in any way. Beyond that - what Richard wrote, except that I'm less certain that the poppy industry is ONLY "a public relations exercise for war"; it ought, after all, to be representative of the very opposite - as I wrote, a salutary reminder of the horrors of war and its aftermath in which almost everyone suffers to some degree. Such human and economic waste is and will always be a disgrace; the only true "heroism" (apart from the single exception that I referred to earlier) in warmongering is that of the Conscientious Objector.

[MrGongGong]

No - it's what anyone wants to make and and make of it. One does not have to subscribe to received ideas about what the poppy supposedly stands for in order to purchase one and have the proceeds allocated to a charity to care for those injured in wars.

I wish that were true BUT (IMV) by joining in one is effectively endorsing a whole way of thinking that I and many other people find abhorrent.

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make. I cannot stand jingoism and I do not see the act of buying a poppy as drawing me into that disgusting charade in any way. Beyond that - what Richard wrote, except that I'm less certain that the poppy industry is ONLY "a public relations exercise for war"; it ought, after all, to be representative of the very opposite - as I wrote, a salutary reminder of the horrors of war and its aftermath in which almost everyone suffers to some degree. Such human and economic waste is and will always be a disgrace; the only true "heroism" (apart from the single exception that I referred to earlier) in warmongering is that of the Conscientious Objector.

What's wrong with the white one ?
(though if you read the comments below the Indy article you find some rather nasty things in relation to that !)

[ahinton]

I wish that were true BUT (IMV) by joining in one is effectively endorsing a whole way of thinking that I and many other people find abhorrent.

That's exactly the point that I was trying to make. I cannot stand jingoism and I do not see the act of buying a poppy as drawing me into that disgusting charade in any way. Beyond that - what Richard wrote, except that I'm less certain that the poppy industry is ONLY "a public relations exercise for war"; it ought, after all, to be representative of the very opposite - as I wrote, a salutary reminder of the horrors of war and its aftermath in which almost everyone suffers to some degree. Such human and economic waste is and will always be a disgrace; the only true "heroism" (apart from the single exception that I referred to earlier) in warmongering is that of the Conscientious Objector.[/QUOTE]

What's wrong with the white one?[/QUOTE]
As I stated in my response to Flossie who first raised that here, nothing at all as far as I can tell.