Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[MrGongGong]

I re read the Indy article and was struck by some of the comments

I don't buy a poppy, ever since the British Legion nationally wholeheartedly backed a local Legion branch which, having refused permission for a wreath of white poppies to be laid on the Sunday, invited the local press to photograph members tearing up said white poppy wreath, which had been laid quietly at the war memorial on the Monday.

It's not a question of "looking for" something , more one that we increasingly have an "official version" of the way we are supposed to behave and think. Thinking about this also with Britten in mind.......

[Beef Oven!]

I re read the Indy article and was struck by some of the comments



It's not a question of "looking for" something , more one that we increasingly have an "official version" of the way we are supposed to behave and think. Thinking about this also with Britten in mind.......

I don't know who you are quoting, but if they are wise and sensitive enough to work out that if we are to reflect, it should be a reflection on peace and never going to war, then they should be savvy enough to understand that placing a pacifist symbol amongst the red poppies will be interpreted as an insulting, provocative political statement, rightly or wrongly.

Next, the naive white poppy-placer gets upset, and politically-correct mischief-makers have the self-fulfilling prophecy they seek, and the rest of us are all losers. It's a shame that you appear to be mugged-off by this.

[MrGongGong]

I don't know who you are quoting, but if they are wise and sensitive enough to work out that if we are to reflect, it should be a reflection on peace and never going to war, then they should be savvy enough to understand that placing a pacifist symbol amongst the red poppies will be interpreted as an insulting, provocative political statement, rightly or wrongly.

Next, the naive white poppy-placer gets upset, and politically-correct mischief-makers have the self-fulfilling prophecy they seek, and the rest of us are all losers. It's a shame that you appear to be mugged-off by this.

Kind of proves the point about how it's become a symbol for those more concerned with war than peace doesn't it !
So the war memorials are only for those who agree with the official way of thinking ?
So much for the freedom to express our views , or does that only apply if we want to be racist of homophobic ?

[Beef Oven!]

Kind of proves the point about how it's become a symbol for those more concerned with war the peace doesn't it !
So the war memorials are only for those who agree with the official way of thinking ?
So much for the freedom to express our views , or does that only apply if we want to be racist of homophobic ?

No, slow down a bit. It is certainly not more for people concerned with war. And I'm not just speaking for myself.

There is a risk that some people may not understand what the reason for poppies and remembrance days is, but what is worse is for intelligent people to hijack it, creating a self full-filling prophecy; either naively, or as part of their Wolfie-Smith type polemics.


What it tells us, is that

[Mr Pee]

Can you think of an example where a nation has embarked on a military operation altruistically?

Altruism is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others.

If intervening to liberate Europe from Nazi oppression was not altruistic, I don't know what is.

[Beef Oven!]

Altruism is the principle or practice of concern for the welfare of others.

If intervening to liberate Europe from Nazi oppression was not altruistic, I don't know what is.

I think that's a very good example. However, someone is bound to argue that the real reason wasn't to save those Poles and Jews that we were fond of back in the day, it was but a tactical move, within an overall foreign policy strategy, cunningly devised to maintain Britain's international power.

You can't argue against it, not because it's a persuasive rational argument, but because it can't be disproved. All sadly anti-Popper!

[amateur51]

Altruism implies, or encompasses selflessness. Britain's participation in WWII was not selfless, it was enlightened self-interest with the bonus outcome of saving others too. IMO.

[MrGongGong]

If intervening to liberate Europe from Nazi oppression was not altruistic, I don't know what is.

So why make out that this is the same as invading Iraq for very dubious motives ?
THAT'S what is wrong NOT the fact that people want to remember......

I'd be convinced that it's simply about "remembering the fallen" if the Afghan soldier who was murdered by the marine found guilty this week was remembered as an individual (as are all the people in the WW1 cemeteries) rather than having our media full of retired generals and the like trying to make out that somehow it was something that should be treated with "understanding". We don't see much understanding for those who have seen their families killed by drone strikes and the rest....

WHICH IS NOT to say that the guy was murdered was a lovely man who was just a bit misunderstood !

a bit more humility would go a long way indeed.

[french frank]

it was enlightened self-interest

My point about posting the link about altruism above - that it's explained as being pretty much that: we are altruistic because in the long run, as human beings, it's to our advantage.

[french frank]

rather than having our media full of retired generals and the like trying to make out that somehow it was something that should be treated with "understanding".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24888089

[amateur51]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24888089

Well said that man!

We await the sentence of the court martial.

[Mr Pee]

I think that's a very good example. However, someone is bound to argue that the real reason wasn't to save those Poles and Jews that we were fond of back in the day, it was but a tactical move, within an overall foreign policy strategy, cunningly devised to maintain Britain's international power.

You can't argue against it, not because it's a persuasive rational argument, but because it can't be disproved. All sadly anti-Popper!

Altruism implies, or encompasses selflessness. Britain's participation in WWII was not selfless, it was enlightened self-interest with the bonus outcome of saving others too. IMO.

Spot on, Beefy!! <thumbs up>

It's all tiresomely predictable, isn't it? <yawn>

[MrGongGong]

Well said that man!

We await the sentence of the court martial.

Indeed
So why are Army murderers allowed to remain anonymous ?

[Richard Barrett]

Britain's participation in WWII was not selfless

And indeed neither Britain nor France initiated a credible direct attack on Germany in the wake of the latter's invasion of Poland, preferring to reserve their forces for the German attack on them which they had known for months was going to happen. On 4 May 1939 the French and British governments decided in a meeting in Paris that "the fate of Poland depends on the final outcome of the war, which will depend on our ability to defeat Germany rather than to aid Poland at the beginning." In other words the idea of "liberating Europe from the Nazis" was not in the minds of the French and British governments when they entered the war, and they were quite prepared to abandon Poland to its fate.

And by the way what is a "left-wing Fascist"?

[MrGongGong]

And by the way what is a "left-wing Fascist"?

Is it like a Vegan Butcher
or a "Christian Soldier" ?