Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[Richard Barrett]

You can intervene altruistically

Can you think of an example where a nation has embarked on a military operation altruistically?

[Padraig]

Depends, Richard, if you want to see the best or the worst in governments. You seem to see the worst.
The British Army moved into Derry in 1969 to save the people from being swamped by police and loyalist mobs. They dear bought it.

[Flosshilde]

To which I can only reply that, in contrast to the pink triange and the swastika, the only meaning you can attach to poppy-wearing is your own..

Sorry Jean, you'll need to clarify that. Do you mean that you can't know why other people wear their poppy, & therefore you shouldn't make any assumptions about their motives, or that the only reasons you can ascribe to other people are the reasons you have for wearing a poppy yourself?

[Flosshilde]

well, jean, plenty would question it....

I'm not so much questioning it as suggesting that it would be possible to remember them without wearing a poppy. In my view the only reason for wearing a symbol is to declare one's allegiance with what it represents to the people who devised or chose it. To wear it for your own, personal & private reasons is meaningless as no one else will know about them.

This is a discussion about symbolism, remember, & the public meaning of a symbol is the meaning given to it by the people who created it. The private meanings one might ascribe to it cannot be known to anyone else, who will only see its public meaning.

[MrGongGong]

This is a discussion about symbolism, remember, & the public meaning of a symbol is the meaning given to it by the people who created it. .

Did you really mean this ?
The meanings of symbols changes
the St Georges flag for example
and also the swastika

[Flosshilde]

Well, yes. But perhaps it would be more accurate to say "by the people who created or own it" - Hitler created the swastika for modern, western audiences who were unfamiliar with its original meaning, & gave it the meaning we recognise today. It's still 'owned' by the fascist right; any attempt to subvert or reclaim it by assigning one's own meaning to it has to overcome that.

[french frank]

Can you think of an example where a nation has embarked on a military operation altruistically?

First to clarify my edited quote, which reads "You can intervene altruistically" - in the context it meant "(Are you saying that) it is permissible to intevene altruistically, but not ... &c." In other words, I wasn't stating that you can (as in the quote), but asking whether one could.

"I am speaking to you from the cabinet room of 10 Downing St. This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany."

Altruistic would not be the exact word I would choose in this context, since obviously, allowing Hitler to invade every country in Europe would eventually threaten the whole of Europe. But was there any hint that Britain was in danger at the point that war was declared? Was intervening 'permissible'?

[MrGongGong]

Well, yes. But perhaps it would be more accurate to say "by the people who created or own it" - Hitler created the swastika for modern, western audiences who were unfamiliar with its original meaning, & gave it the meaning we recognise today. It's still 'owned' by the fascist right; any attempt to subvert or reclaim it by assigning one's own meaning to it has to overcome that.

So the poppy thing was Created and Owned by the people who were in WW1 ?
Which is how I always understood it until it became about other things......... which is now what it is , complete with "remembering" (which often comes across and "celebrating" IMV) some rather dodgy enterprises indeed

[Beef Oven!]

[Swastika].......It's still 'owned' by the fascist right

Good to see an acknowledgement, albeit implicit, that there is a Fascist left.

[Beef Oven!]

So the poppy thing was Created and Owned by the people who were in WW1 ?
Which is how I always understood it until it became about other things......... which is now what it is , complete with "remembering" (which often comes across and "celebrating" IMV) some rather dodgy enterprises indeed

It might mean something different to you, but it may not have altered in meaning for other people, especially the older generation who fought in WWII. I have never come across any in that category that see it as a celebration.

[Anna]

Can you think of an example where a nation has embarked on a military operation altruistically?

I thought it was called the Marshall Plan?

[MrGongGong]

It might mean something different to you, but it may not have altered in meaning for other people, especially the older generation who fought in WWII. I have never come across any in that category that see it as a celebration.

I have
and several who will have nothing to do with the whole business as a result

[Flosshilde]

Good to see an acknowledgement, albeit implicit, that there is a Fascist left.

Yawn

[Beef Oven!]

I have
and several who will have nothing to do with the whole business as a result

I suppose we find what we're looking for.

[Beef Oven!]

Yawn

Go to bed.