Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[Padraig]

I think it's the pro patria we question these days - and rightly so.

I don't understand, jean. In the event of a war, what other honourable reason would there be to die for, if not for your country?

[ahinton]

I don't understand, jean. In the event of a war, what other honourable reason would there be to die for, if not for your country?

I don't understand, Padraig; how does or can one die for one's country (unless one's country confirms in writing in advance its expectation that one should do so)?

In a war situation, if invited to "serve my country", I would endeavour to do so, by declaring myself a Conscientious Objector; frankly, I have little idea how else I could "serve my country" (Scotland) in any case, since in the absence of military training and the technique and eyesight to take charge of and use a weapon of any kind, doing anything else would almost certainly risk interfering with the "war effort".

I sympathise well with someone I know who served two years as a conscript years ago, against his wishes and said that he then had to spend at least three more years unlearning everything that he'd been forced to learn during conscription before being able to continue with his life; what an utter waste of taxpayers' money that was! Thank goodness all that nonsense has long been consigned to history.

[Serial_Apologist]

I might be prepared to die for what I considered an honourable principle, but a country does not constitute a principle, imo.

[MrGongGong]

I might be prepared to die for what I considered an honourable principle, but a country does not constitute a principle, imo.

Indeed, the perpetration of the myth that somehow those who have needlessly died in Iraq &Afghanistan are doing it for "their country" needs challenging and dismantling. There is IMV a huge difference (as I said before) between today and conscripted teenagers being sent to their deaths in WW1 and to make out that they are somehow the same is wrong and offensive.

[eighthobstruction]

Indeed in many of the actions in WW1, the best way men could have served their country was by shooting their Top Brass,and anybody else who forced them into ridiculous situations....

[Richard Barrett]

I might be prepared to die for what I considered an honourable principle, but a country does not constitute a principle, imo.

Indeed. As MrGG says, people who died in Iraq and Afghanistan actually died for the "principle" of keeping cheap oil flowing from the Middle East, and for the "principle" of furthering the imperial strategy of another country altogether. (Or am I missing something "honourable" that I haven't managed to find in the motivations of the participants?)

[Anna]

I'm not sure I can be asked to read through this thread - I wear my poppy in remembrance of the two young brothers, miners both, in our family, who thought it was probably an awfully big adventure to sign up at the age of 17 (having been down the pit since the age of 14 and told the war would be over by Christmas) and who were mown down, one on the first day of the Somme, the other died of wounds 1918, commemorated on the Abergwynfi War Memorial, one aged 19, the other 21. That's the only reason I wear my poppy, that someone remembers them. A totally sentimental gesture I know.

[jean]

The best of reasons, and who would presume to question it?

[Beef Oven!]

Indeed in many of the actions in WW1, the best way men could have served their country was by shooting their Top Brass,and anybody else who forced them into ridiculous situations....

Sadly, they didn't know that at the time.

[jean]

...a country does not constitute a principle, imo.

No.

My country, right or wrong, is a principle, and a bad one.

I don't understand, jean. In the event of a war, what other honourable reason would there be to die for, if not for your country?

It's not so much what other reason, but whether this one is sufficient.

Whether such a death is sweet and fitting is the question.

Horace doesn't mention honour. Sadly, we know all too well what horrors are perpetrated in its name.

[Beef Oven!]

Indeed. As MrGG says, people who died in Iraq and Afghanistan actually died for the "principle" of keeping cheap oil flowing from the Middle East, and for the "principle" of furthering the imperial strategy of another country altogether. (Or am I missing something "honourable" that I haven't managed to find in the motivations of the participants?)

Many servicemen and their families don't think that's what they died for, in fact that's what you think they died for (as I do too). That's all. You're not missing anything.

[Anna]

The best of reasons, and who would presume to question it?

well, jean, plenty would question it.... but I feel, these two young brothers, oh, it's just tragic, they had no wives, girlriends or children, they are forgotten, just a corpse on a memorial. As to current wars, Tony Bliar, I'm sure I would be modded if I said what I thought!!

[Beef Oven!]

The best of reasons, and who would presume to question it?

Seconded.

[french frank]

(Or am I missing something "honourable" that I haven't managed to find in the motivations of the participants?)

Well, the Iraqi annexation of Kuwait may have started it off (or even the Iraqi invasion of Iran before that). Does the 'honourable principle' in [Western] intervention depend entirely on the degree of self-interest? You can intervene altruistically (= a principle), but not if you have a self-interested motive?

The second Iraqi war did differ from the first.

[MrGongGong]

well, jean, plenty would question it.... but I feel, these two young brothers, oh, it's just tragic, they had no wives, girlriends or children, they are forgotten, just a corpse on a memorial. As to current wars, Tony Bliar, I'm sure I would be modded if I said what I thought!!

It is tragic in the real sense of the word
and I like many others have similar stories in my family
which is one reason why I find the whole poppy thing so offensive as it is equating the tragedy of WW1 and 2 with foolish and dubious "adventures" in more recent times.
I find the whole "heroes" script an insult to the memory....... the way in which the establishment will present the 100th anniversary of WW1 fills me with dread