Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[ahinton]

Banging on through Parliamentary process since the 1950s I think you meant to say, flower.

Are you Cornish?...

You also make the classic mistake of thinking that only LGBTI people are interested in LGBTI rights - these people all have parents, most have brothers, sisters, cousins, some have children too. We also have friends, why it's a whole community of support.

Indeed so. One member here appears to have misconstrued something about my own sexuality, almost certainly by virtue of my defence of the rights of the LGBTI community. It's a similar argument to that which has on occasion been known to invite the retort "you don't have to be female to be a feminist".

[ahinton]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ack-fears.html

I note that you refrain (perhaps wisely) from comment on this article, but are you surprised at some or all of its contents?

I am not certain as to the wisdom or otherwise of revealing the marine's identity, although at the same time it is less than obvious to me why his identity should have be concealed before, during or after trial, conviction and sentencing when that of other murderers is not; indeed, one Muslim whom I know wryly remarked that seeking to justify the concealment of a defendant's identity in a Western court of law might be seen by some as analogous to supporting the wearing of a veil by a defendant in such a court were it not for the sheer improbability that any one individual would do both.

He did what he did wilfully in callous disregard not only of his victim but also of his contract of employment, the Geneva Convention and the interests of his employer, his professional colleagues, his family, his friends and (let's not forget this) himself.

[amateur51]

I note that you refrain (perhaps wisely) from comment on this article, but are you surprised at some or all of its contents?

I am not certain as to the wisdom or otherwise of revealing the marine's identity, although at the same time it is less than obvious to me why his identity should have be concealed before, during or after trial, conviction and sentencing when that of other murderers is not; indeed, one Muslim whom I know wryly remarked that seeking to justify the concealment of a defendant's identity in a Western court of law might be seen by some as analogous to supporting the wearing of a veil by a defendant in such a court were it not for the sheer improbability that any one individual would do both.

He did what he did wilfully in callous disregard not only of his victim but also of his contract of employment, the Geneva Convention and the interests of his employer, his professional colleagues, his family, his friends and (let's not forget this) himself.

I seem to recall a phase that Mr Pee went through of saying "well he should have thought of that before he ..." - I think Edward Snowden was a citizen picked out for such treatment.

I notice that Mr Pee has not revived this line of commentary for Sgt. Blackman.

[ahinton]

I seem to recall a phase that Mr Pee went through of saying "well he should have thought of that before he ..." - I think Edward Snowden was a citizen picked out for such treatment.

I notice that Mr Pee has not revived this line of commentary for Sgt. Blackman.

Indeed. Recalling one aspect of the thread topic, however, there ae rather more people who believe Mr Snowden to be a genuine "hero" than there are signatories to the e-petition calling for the immediate freeing from jail and rescinding of conviction of Sgt. Blackman.

[MrGongGong]

I seem to recall a phase that Mr Pee went through of saying "well he should have thought of that before he ..." - I think Edward Snowden was a citizen picked out for such treatment.

I notice that Mr Pee has not revived this line of commentary for Sgt. Blackman.

I don't think he has really thought this through has he ?
Or maybe he can't get over the idea that one of his 'chums' might not be the top chap that he previously thought ?

[Mr Pee]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sgt-alexander-blackman-marine-backed-2905895

[amateur51]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...backed-2905895

The smell of panic as Pee descends to linking with the Mirror


None of this shower was in court listening to the evidence. Imagine how this is playing in Muslim households up & down the land. They must feel very torn.

[ahinton]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...backed-2905895

I see that you have no compunction about quoting from a cracked mirror; OK.

"More than 60,000 people have now pledged their support on a website for the Royal Marine jailed for executing a wounded Taliban insurgent in Afghanistan.

And many reacted with fury to Sgt Alexander Blackman’s 10-year sentence"

...runs this piece of cheap journalese that seems unable to be bothered even to identify the particular website to which 60K people have supposedly attached their supporting signatures, so all that we know is that it clearly isn't the government e-petition one which, while continuing to attract more signatories, stands at 28,163 when last I looked a few moments ago.

But please be honest here, Mr Pee; what exactly is it that you want? You've signed the petition and demonstrated your support for it (which it is your inalienable democratic right to do) and, because you've done so (and encouraged others to follow suit), you presumably support the campaign to release the marine from jail forthwith and have his murder conviction quashed; however, you've not yet said whether you also believe that he should be reinstated as a member of the armed services by rescinding his dismissal and the disgrace with which that dismissal was meted out to him, so please do this so that we all know exactly where you stand on this.

Thank you.

[Beef Oven!]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...backed-2905895

Well done MrPee, there's at least one Sun reader in here who'll benefit.

[ahinton]

The smell of panic as Pee descends to linking with the Mirror


None of this shower was in court listening to the evidence. Imagine how this is playing in Muslim households up & down the land. They must feel very torn.

Indeed so - but please let's allow Mr Pee to answer for himself in his own time (if indeed he will), not least in response to the questions that I have put to him in all sincerity for the sole purpose of ascertaining exactly where he stands on all aspects of this matter.

[ahinton]

Well done MrPee, there's at least one Sun reader in here who'll benefit.

From what, exactly? (and I do not need to know the identity of the Sun reader concerned, any more than the rest of us needed - at least in my view - necessarily to know the identity of the convicted marine, although it would, I think, be hard to argue that the latter deserved an anonymity not customarily accorded to convicted murderers)...

[ahinton]

I note that the government site e-petition signatories tally has just passed the 35,000 mark; it continues to increase, but slowly and it could well run out of steam as Christmas approaches and other news items take over, as they have a reliable habit of doing.

I do wonder, though, whether some of those who have attached their names to this have beenm motivated at least in part by disgust and dismay at the treatment often meted out to armed forces personnel by their employers, not least in terms of lack of due physical and psychological care and shortcomings in training and monitoring during and after their tours as well as rehabilitastional care following their resignation / retirement from the military. Whilst this is indeed a material factor in more general terms, I think that the notion of seeking to attach undue blame upon the forces themselves for what happened in this single incident is as profoundly misplaced as it is potentially dangerous; it should be addressed as a separate issue and that needs to be commenced as soon as possible.

The defence industry has rightly been vilified for wastage of vast sums of taxpayers' money in gross procurement errors and inefficiences over some years; this should perhaps be taken as an illustration of how things can go so very wrong within the armed forces and encourage the impementation of widespread and comprehensive internal investigations, followed, if necessary, by a thoroughgoing public inquiry into the conduct of armed forces employers towards their employees and the nature of their contracts.

[french frank]

I would dismiss the comments of people who 'bet' that none of those who sat in judgement had been within 1,000 miles of a battle front. He was judged by a court martial, all military officers. They may have been high-ranking now, but they didn't go into the forces as generals.

Two other quotes:

Colonel Richard Kemp, a former commander of British troops in Helmand, said the incident would make life more dangerous for troops. "This murder is a grotesque violation of British forces' longstanding reputation for morality and humanity even in the most desperate battlefield conditions," he said. "Execution of prisoners of war is a crime we associate with Nazi stormtroopers, not Royal Marines."


General Sir Mike Jackson, a former head of the army, said: "Whoever we are, we are subject to the law. The due process of law has taken place." But he said it was worth bearing in mind that of the 100,000 troops who had served abroad in the last decade, Marine A was the only one who had committed murder. "A sense of perspective is called for," he added.


What might be questioned is what the reasoning was behind naming him. Now I know his name: so what? Now everyone knows his name: so what? Give him a name and a face and a family and there is more pressure to defend him. Is 'justice' served by naming him? If so, in what way?

[ahinton]

I would dismiss the comments of people who 'bet' that none of those who sat in judgement had been within 1,000 miles of a battle front. He was judged by a court martial, all military officers. They may have been high-ranking now, but they didn't go into the forces as generals.

Two other quotes:

Colonel Richard Kemp, a former commander of British troops in Helmand, said the incident would make life more dangerous for troops. "This murder is a grotesque violation of British forces' longstanding reputation for morality and humanity even in the most desperate battlefield conditions," he said. "Execution of prisoners of war is a crime we associate with Nazi stormtroopers, not Royal Marines."


General Sir Mike Jackson, a former head of the army, said: "Whoever we are, we are subject to the law. The due process of law has taken place." But he said it was worth bearing in mind that of the 100,000 troops who had served abroad in the last decade, Marine A was the only one who had committed murder. "A sense of perspective is called for," he added.


What might be questioned is what the reasoning was behind naming him. Now I know his name: so what? Now everyone knows his name: so what? Give him a name and a face and a family and there is more pressure to defend him. Is 'justice' served by naming him? If so, in what way?

Agreed in every particular. The only reason to name him, perhaps, was in order not to give him the special privilege of anonymity not customarily accorded to convicted murderers; this I can understand in principle insofar as it goes, but I do nevertheless agree that hardly anyone is any better off knowing his identity.

[french frank]

I do nevertheless agree that hardly anyone is any better off knowing his identity.

And some innocent people potentially very much worse off.