Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[ahinton]

Even my mouth is not so big as to get all those words in, Ahinton.

Then don't try to use your mouth, than which your eyes are far better equipped for reading - and if you struggle to cope with a mere 167 words, heaven help you when you try to read the average short story!

Could you please make your straw-man a little smaller please.

No - sorry; I can't amend the size of something that I do not actually have in the first place.

In answer to your question, by the way, the Beatles were four members of a group from Liverpool who never served in Iraq or Afghanistan and a skateboard is a non-motorised transportation device that as far as I am aware has never been deployed by armed forces in either of those countries.

[Beef Oven!]

Then don't try to use your mouth, than which your eyes are far better equipped for reading - and if you struggle to cope with a mere 167 words, heaven help you when you try to read the average short story!


No - sorry; I can't amend the size of something that I do not actually have in the first place.

In answer to your question, by the way, the Beatles were four members of a group from Liverpool who never served in Iraq or Afghanistan and a skateboard is a non-motorised transportation device that as far as I am aware has never been deployed by armed forces in either of those countries.

Ok, your Aunt Sally is irreducible.

[ahinton]

Ok, your Aunt Sally is irreducible.

As with the straw man that I do not have, I cannot reduce my Aunt Sally as I do not have one of those either! You really do credit me with rather too much sometimes! That said, I note that you are still asking for information on the Beatles' identity/ies and the definition of a skateboard...

[Mr Pee]

I'm not so sure that I'd go that far; you might be right, but only time will tell. That said, the great problem that it risks causing is that of focusing unwelcome attention of the behaviour of armed forces on active service in countgries where they have no business to be, despite the particular marine's utterly indefensible and unmitigable behaviour being the exceptional case that mercifully it is; in any event, however, if he is ultimately sentenced just like any other murderer (or even served with a harsher sentence than most on account of having breached the Geneva Convention and thereby his employment contract), I imagine that any risk of what you suggest here will be duly minimised if not dispensed with altogether.

Al, you keep banging on about UK forces having no right to be in Afghanistan- as if that has any bearing whatsoever on this case- but the fact is that they are there with United Nations authorisation, as part of a multi-national force. A UN mandate means that they have every business to be there, and that multi-national force has made many positive contributions to help build a more stable and secure country, free from the malign influence of the Taliban and their medieval values.

I can see the case is likely to extend this armed struggle for a further five years at least unless an adequate sentence is dealt out to the Marine. His actions have potentially endangered the lives of every British soldier , their families and possibly all UK citizens.

What planet have you been on for the last several years? Lee Rigby was butchered on the streets of Woolwich way before Marine A had his moment of madness. Every soldier is at risk and has been for some time, as are UK citizens, even though on another thread you seem to downplay that threat at every opportunity. Make your bleedin' mind up.

And you seem to forget that the vast majority of Afghans are completely opposed to the Taliban and all that they represent. They wish to get on with their lives without fear of beheading for some minor offence against their warped ideology. I really don't think most of them could care less about the death of one Taliban member at the hands of a Royal Marine. They have much more pressing matters to worry about in their day to day lives.

[amateur51]

What planet have you been on for the last several years? Lee Rigby was butchered on the streets of Woolwich way before Marine A had his moment of madness. Every soldier is at risk and has been for some time, as are UK citizens, even though on another thread you seem to downplay that threat at every opportunity. Make your bleedin' mind up.

Less of the bad language please - it's quite unnecessary.

And you seem to forget that the vast majority of Afghans are completely opposed to the Taliban and all that they represent. They wish to get on with their lives without fear of beheading for some minor offence against their warped ideology. I really don't think most of them could care less about the death of one Taliban member at the hands of a Royal Marine. They have much more pressing matters to worry about in their day to day lives.

We've been through this ages ago. The NATO presence in Afghanistan effectively got rid of the Taliban in 2001, so why are we still there? Because we blew that opportunity - cheers Mr Blair.

Your complacency about the radicalising effect of British troops in Muslim countries is truly pathetic. You've never grasped it, even though it is mentioned time and again in the suicide bomber videos.

[ahinton]

Al, you keep banging on about UK forces having no right to be in Afghanistan- as if that has any bearing whatsoever on this case- but the fact is that they are there with United Nations authorisation, as part of a multi-national force. A UN mandate means that they have every business to be there, and that multi-national force has made many positive contributions to help build a more stable and secure country, free from the malign influence of the Taliban and their medieval values.

I bang neither on nor off; the fact that the presence of UK troops in Afghanistan is ostensibly sanctioned by UN - as you rightly observe to be the case - is in principle shameful indeed but sadly has nevertheless to be accepted as a fact, but what's more important is what will happen when, as you know is now planned, they leave; do you really believe that, with what's now going on in both Afghanistan and neighbouring Pakistan (assuming that Waziristan north and south is still to be regarded as part of Pakistan rather than a country waiting for independence that would then exist between the two), the departure of UK troops will leave a better place with a more sustainable and better future for Afghan citizens? I don't, although I do not blame UK troops for the fact that this isn't going to happen.

I have little doubt that UK troops have, for the most part, done the best that they could under the stresss and strains of the situation with which they have been confronted and under the orders given to them by their superiors over the past 13 years or so, but that's not in itself going to bring about the kinds of change that are likely to have a long-term beneficial effect upon the citizens of that country. Of course the Taleban's "principles" and aims are deplorable - with that fact I have no dissent with you - but what can British troops hope to have achieved about the future of all of that on a long-term basis after they've gone?

Incidentally, I said that UK troops have no business to be in Afghanistan, not no right to be there.

What planet have you been on for the last several years?

I believe that it's generally known as Earth; where were you during the same period of time?

Lee Rigby was butchered on the streets of Woolwich way before Marine A had his moment of madness. Every soldier is at risk and has been for some time, as are UK citizens, even though on another thread you seem to downplay that threat at every opportunity. Make your bleedin' mind up.

Your apparent implication that in any sense I might condone, or even accept, the murder of Lee Rigby is quite disgusting and your exhortation to "make (my) bleedin' mind up" even more so, since I no more condone the murder of Mr Rigby than I do that of Marine A's victim; no clemency should be offered to either murderer, for they each committed murder in cold blood and there are in my view no mitigating circumstances for either. That you appear to think that I believe otherwise speaks quite revoltingly for itself. Murder is murder and, if the killing cannot be justified as complying with the Geneva Convention along the lines that it's acceptable by reason of being definably in the line of duty during a war, then there's no justification.

And you seem to forget that the vast majority of Afghans are completely opposed to the Taliban and all that they represent.

I neither do so nor "seem to" do so; of course the rest of what you write here is correct and I agree with it entirely.

They wish to get on with their lives without fear of beheading for some minor offence against their warped ideology.

Again, Mr Pee, I agree with you and, in fact, I take pleasure in so doing.

I really don't think most of them could care less about the death of one Taliban member at the hands of a Royal Marine. They have much more pressing matters to worry about in their day to day lives.

Ah, but it's not just the Afghan citizens who have an opinion on this, though, is it? - nor indeed should it be. Do you not think that those Afghan citizens whom you mention would respect the Geneva Convention and its upholding? - and that they might indeed do so at least in part because they see the Taleban as something entirely disrespectful of such a Convention and they fear and loathe them for that very reason among others?

It occurs to me that we may not be in quite so much disagreement here as you might like to think!

[Mr Pee]

You're always so prim about language it was too good to miss.

Once again, grow up.

[Mr Pee]

We've been through this ages ago. The NATO presence in Afghanistan effectively got rid of the Taliban in 2001, so why are we still there? Because we blew that opportunity - cheers Mr Blair.

So if NATO got rid of the Taliban in 2001, as you say, how come Marine A is up in court for "murdering" a Taliban prisoner? Clearly, if the Taliban were defeated 12 years ago, there is no case for him to answer. And all those Taliban attacks since 2001, such as the shooting of Malala Yousafzai just over a year ago, are all a figment of the imagination.

Your complacency about the radicalising effect of British troops in Muslim countries is truly pathetic. You've never grasped it, even though it is mentioned time and again in the suicide bomber videos.

Oh well, I am not surprised that you take those Party Political Broadcasts seriously. Most observers, with the exception of their fellow travellers, regard them, quite rightly, as the rantings of deranged lunatics.

[ahinton]

Foxtrot Romeo Oscar? Don't the Beckhams have a forth?

A fourth what? Poppy? Oh, sorry; that's back on topic, isn't it?!...

[Mr Pee]

I regard such language as completely unnacceptable, even here in the dungeon. I hope that FF will now take appropriate action.

[Ed: Unacceptable language quoted - ff]

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, I have been ignoring you completely since my unfortunate relapse at the top of this thread, but since Beefy qouted your latest piece of foul-mouthery I was unable to avoid it.

Why have you felt the need to repeat it? I regard such language as completely unnacceptable, even here in the dungeon. I hope that FF will now take appropriate action.

Hey Pee, if it makes it any better, some benefit has come from MrGG's words. I'm gonna crib them as a lyric and scan them into a song I'm preparing. His words scan perfectly into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcmdYUuSRHw

[ahinton]

I regard such language as completely unnacceptable, even here in the dungeon. I hope that FF will now take appropriate action.

[Ed: Unacceptable language quoted - ff]

I agree with you here. It is indeed unacceptable - well, at least I find at so as much as you do and I'm sure that we're not alone in finding it to be so. It contributes nothing to civilised discussion other than undermining the progress that it might otherwise have made.

[french frank]

I regard such language as completely unnacceptable, even here in the dungeon. I hope that FF will now take appropriate action

Following a complaint I have removed all the most recent posts containing language which is against the House Rules. Could I point out that it is unhelpful, if you are complaining about bad language, to include the bad language again in a quote. If I remove one I have to go through editing out all the quotes.

If the two 'sides' continue in this way I shall close this board and ALL discussion of politics and current affairs will be banned (as it not unusual with other forums). I have too many other things to do than bother with people who turn the forum into a battlefield every time. People must find somewhere else to fight.

[ahinton]

Following a complaint I have removed all the most recent posts containing language which is against the House Rules. Could I point out that it is unhelpful, if you are complaining about bad language, to include the bad language again in a quote. If I remove one I have to go through editing out all the quotes.

Thank you very much for this.

If the two 'sides' continue in this way I shall close this board and ALL discussion of politics and current affairs will be banned (as it not unusual with other forums). I have too many other things to do than bother with people who turn the forum into a battlefield every time. People must find somewhere else to fight.

Afghanistan, peut-être? Most people don't want this closed down, so the solution for avoiding such an eventuality should be blindingly obvious...

[MrGongGong]

I regard such language as completely unnacceptable, even here in the dungeon. I hope that FF will now take appropriate action.

You find the language unacceptable but war crimes seem to be OK ?
hummmm something odd about that don't you think ?