Poppies and the "Heroes Industry" ?

[amateur51]

What is bizarre is that you and Richard Barrett sound like a couple of 'offended Tories talking about suicide bombers'. All this 'outrage' about "sadistic murder" an' all.

What was it Bob said? 'If d kyap fit.....'

Bob Melhuish said that?

[teamsaint]

send me your address in a PM and i'll send you a bottle of Batemans XXXB
I think you need it

not today, he doesn't. Celebrated a sneaky win over Arsenal with 26 pints and his own weight in prawn crackers last night.

Last heard putting together a Merzbow/BoneyM mashup....

[Beef Oven!]

send me your address in a PM and i'll send you a bottle of Batemans XXXB
I think you need it

This evening I bought a bottle of Jack Daniels for £16 in Tesco and a bottle of Whyte & Mackay for £13 in Sainsbury's. Both part of my return to alcohol supply in July.

I've tried to get Batemans in quite a few shops and although Thresher's said they will be getting some in, they never do. I may take you up on your offer. But if I get a load of mini cabs at three in the morning and 50 yards of sand delivered, I'll know who to look for!

[Beef Oven!]

not today, he doesn't. Celebrated a sneaky win over Arsenal with 26 pints and his own weight in prawn crackers last night.

Last heard putting together a Merzbow/BoneyM mashup....

Actually, it was 3 diet Cokes, the worst Kung Po prawns I've ever had in my life and greasy elastic-band noodles. Never again.

[teamsaint]

Actually, it was 3 diet Cokes, the worst Kung Po prawns I've ever had in my life and greasy elastic-band noodles. Never again.

diet coke is full of bad stuff.
Sorry if i misinterpreted your post.
Pity you couldn't get that second goal. bloody amateurs.

[Mr Pee]

I'm afraid I can't see this as being anything but nakedly contrarian.

Let us concede that life at the front is hugely stressful, and accept what the military say: that it doesn't get any easier the longer you have to experience it. Let us concede that, in the brutality of combat, seeing comrades killed by 'the enemy' is emotionally difficult to bear. Let us imagine all the anger and grief that builds up inside. And then you are faced with someone who personifies everything that you have been fighting for and against.

To shoot, in cold blood, an injured man whose individual 'guilt' is unknown, and then be sufficiently in control of yourself to admit that you have just deliberately flouted international law - that is straightforward murder. It was a war crime. The very least one can do is allow the law, taking all circumstances into consideration, to take its course. If one asks for clemency in this case, why not in any other? What are the extenuating circumstances here that don't normally apply in other war situations governed by the Geneva Convention?

Yes, this is from the Daily Mail, and therefore to most viewers here not worth the paper it's written on, but it is by Colonel Tim Collins, who has combat experience, unlike most of the armchair commentators. And to my mind he gets right to the heart of the matter:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2499079/Dont-sacrifice-man-altar-political-correctness-COLONEL-TIM-COLLINS-says-convicted-Marine-deserves-understanding.html

[MrGongGong]

And he is wrong

That's what we have the Geneva convention for

There's nothing "politically correct" about thinking that maybe someone who commits a cold blooded and calculated murder , fully aware of what they are doing and so on should be treated the same way as others who commit the same crime. If I had seen my family killed in a drone strike and then as a result went on to commit acts of terrorism against the UK/ USA would I be afforded the same understanding ? I think not.....

Why this seems to be very important is that historically the armed forces have been allowed to "get away with" illegal acts (which is NOT to suggest that everyone else in the world are nice people we should have round for tea and cake) like this. The soldiers who murdered innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday were never prosecuted, nor were those responsible which encouraged many to give up on the idea of a political process in favour of taking up bombing and so on. If this man (who is still seemingly allowed to remain anonymous ? ) is allowed to escape justice then it makes a mockery of having international law and things like the Geneva convention.

[Beef Oven!]

And he is wrong

That's what we have the Geneva convention for

There's nothing "politically correct" about thinking that maybe someone who commits a cold blooded and calculated murder , fully aware of what they are doing and so on should be treated the same way as others who commit the same crime. If I had seen my family killed in a drone strike and then as a result went on to commit acts of terrorism against the UK/ USA would I be afforded the same understanding ? I think not.....

Why this seems to be very important is that historically the armed forces have been allowed to "get away with" illegal acts (which is NOT to suggest that everyone else in the world are nice people we should have round for tea and cake) like this. The soldiers who murdered innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday were never prosecuted, nor were those responsible which encouraged many to give up on the idea of a political process in favour of taking up bombing and so on. If this man (who is still seemingly allowed to remain anonymous ? ) is allowed to escape justice then it makes a mockery of having international law and things like the Geneva convention.

You say he's wrong, but doesn't it depend on how you look at things? You're getting a tad emotional about it all, which is different from your postings following the murder of Lee Rigby, where you were doing the 'ooh of course it's wrong, BUT...' number on us, then proceed to effectively pass apology on the whole thing.

And why do you want to know his name? Can't you see that would be a huge risk to his family, who are completely innocent?

[amateur51]

"Don't sacrifice this man on the altar of political correctness: COLONEL TIM COLLINS believes the convicted Marine deserves some understanding" screams the Daily Mail headline.

What about all the families of Afghani and Pakistani civilians who have been murdered in drone attacks? If they become militants, don't they deserve some understanding too?

I think Colonel Tim might be on to something here, a tad late in the day, but then he's a military man.

[amateur51]

You say he's wrong, but doesn't it depend on how you look at things? You're getting a tad emotional about it all, which is different from your postings following the murder of Lee Rigby, where you were doing the 'ooh of course it's wrong, BUT...' number on us, then proceed to effectively pass apology on the whole thing.

And why do you want to know his name? Can't you see that would be a huge risk to his family, who are completely innocent?

Can't you see that by not naming Marine A, the military has exposed every male British soldier to attack on the grounds that he might be Marine A? Same logic.

[Beef Oven!]

"Don't sacrifice this man on the altar of political correctness: COLONEL TIM COLLINS believes the convicted Marine deserves some understanding" screams the Daily Mail headline.

What about all the families of Afghani and Pakistani civilians who have been murdered in drone attacks? If they become militants, don't they deserve some understanding too?

I think Colonel Tim might be on to something here, a tad late in the day, but then he's a military man.

Of course we must think of the terrible human misery that is caused right around the world, but surely we mustn't use it to have a pop at the military, or this country at every opportunity? It does get a bit monotonous too.

And let's not forget, it's the Britain that subsidises our trips abroad CD and wine buying etc, so let's not be so ungrateful!!

[amateur51]

Of course we must think of the terrible human misery that is caused right around the world, but surely we mustn't use it to have a pop at the military, or this country at every opportunity? It does get a bit monotonous too.

And let's not forget, it's the Britain that subsidises our trips abroad CD and wine buying etc, so let's not be so ungrateful!!

There's no 'of course' about it. The recently departed scottycelt would have had no truck with your sentiment. The enemy are pure evil and that's it!

The true monotony comes from the knee-jerk 'My Country Right or Wrong' guff we get every year at this time.

Your final sentence doesn't make sense as it stands.

[MrGongGong]

You say he's wrong, but doesn't it depend on how you look at things? You're getting a tad emotional about it all, which is different from your postings following the murder of Lee Rigby, where you were doing the 'ooh of course it's wrong, BUT...' number on us, then proceed to effectively pass apology on the whole thing.

And why do you want to know his name? Can't you see that would be a huge risk to his family, who are completely innocent?

I was NEVER doing a

'ooh of course it's wrong, BUT...'

You seem to have spent far too long hanging round the gents with mr Pee

I don't want to know his name
BUT I always thought that the law should apply to ALL people..... or is that just for the "baddies" ?

I've never suggested that anyone who commits murder should be 'understood' as an alternative to prison.
Mr A seems to be very similar to the man who murdered machine gunner Rigby in the attempt at justifying something which has no justification.

The true monotony comes from the knee-jerk 'My Country Right or Wrong' guff we get every year at this time.

How true this is :-(

[ahinton]

Of course we must think of the terrible human misery that is caused right around the world, but surely we mustn't use it to have a pop at the military, or this country at every opportunity? It does get a bit monotonous too.

No, indeed, for there are plenty of other reasons to do that, not least (as I observed earlier) in the context of Britain having interfered militarily in the affairs of Iraq and Afghanistan without having had war declared on it by either and without having declared war on either.

I have much respect for Tim Collins but even his experience does not make him right about this; there is in any case a valid argument that every convicted murderer deserves some understanding to the extent that, without it, the rest of us might learn less about what prompted him/her to commit murder than would otherwise be the case, but I still see no reason why Marine A should be accorded special treatment in this regard. What particular reasons do you have for believing that he should take precedence over other murderers in being recommended for clemency?

As to the matter of naming or not naming him, am51's #175 makes a good point, although I still think that there's something of a Catch-22-like element of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" about that and I'm not sure that naming him would make any material difference, since he's already been charged with, tried for, convicted of and sentenced for murder. I suspect, however, than once he's "settled down" in prison, other inmates will soon find out his ID and it'll be published pretty soon thereafter, unless he's forced to spend his entire term in solitary confinement (which is hardly likely on any grounds, let alone those of trying to keep his ID secret).

And let's not forget

Ah - "lest we forget" and all that...

it's the Britain that subsidises our trips abroad CD and wine buying etc, so let's not be so ungrateful!!

Hmm. Hadn't thought of that. Note to self - book up for a tour of the most prestigious vineyards and CD retailers of Afghanistan, staying at the Four Seasons in Herat (there must be one there, surely?), flying business class (they don't do first in Afghanistan) via Dubai and Kabul. I'm not sure what would be the best time of year to do this, but in case Kuoni or Abercrombie & Kent can't help I could always ask the local brach of the SAS (whose presence in Herefordistan is not unknown)...

[ahinton]

There's no 'of course' about it. The recently departed scottycelt would have had no truck with your sentiment. The enemy are pure evil and that's it!

Isn't "pure evil" a contradiction in terms?(!)...

The true monotony comes from the knee-jerk 'My Country Right or Wrong' guff we get every year at this time.

Indeed, though not only at this time (albeit more at this time than at other times, I suppose) - but, since I've never involved myself in or condoned military action in Iraq and Afghanistan sponsored by a country that's not had war declared upon it or declared war on either of those countries, it doesn't feel much like "my" country at all...