News International phone-hacking trial

[ahinton]

In today's Guardian Chris Huhne rails against the inappropriateness Coulson's jail term, demonstrating once again that he just doesn't get it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/06/andy-coulson-jail-term-prison-obsession

Huhne calls Coulson's sentence schadenfreude. Believe me if it really were schadenfreude Coulson should be dressed in a convict's uniform with arrows racing up & down it and forced to parade before Fleet Street's finest photographers daily until after a month had passed no-one came.

I bet Chris still thinks he was 'done' for a minor traffic offence :slapsselfonforeheadthingo:

I'm absolutely no fan of Huhne or Coulson but I do wonder if in fact Huhne does "get it" - or at least some of it - after all. I do not suggest that Coulson should not have been jailed, but there can be no doubt that custodial terms are more appropriate for some crimes than others - which is not the same as saying that alternative punishments should not be at least as severe (and Coulson's should certainly be severe).

We all know that prison places are in ever shorter supply and, if the improbable sounding statistic that Huhne offers here by claiming that "30% of English and Welsh men have a criminal conviction by the age of 40" (where on earth did he pull that one from? - and why are we Scots left out of this?!), then our present prisons, even if they were all currently empty, could not possibly be expected to hold more than the tiniest percentage of those criminals.

I don't agree that Coulson's sentence is schadenfreude but the criminal justice system cannot possibly lock up more than a very small percentage of criminals in prison and, whilst custodial sentences are not appropriate for a large number of criminals, some might nevertheless argue that it is hopelessly overloaded in this regard; there are currently some 85,000 prisoners and only around 1,000 more places available and, whilst I'm not sure what the combined adult male population of England and Wales may be, 30% of it must be several times the total number of available prison places and many times the number of vacant ones.

[french frank]

Perhaps one should just say Huhne isn't the most persuasive advocate and Coulson not the most useful example atm?

[amateur51]

I read that yesterday. But he does make some valid points, whatever the headline message that you take away from it:

That it costs £40,000 a year to keep him in prison and

"We lock up 149 of every 100,000 people, compared with 103 in France and 78 in Germany. If we imprisoned as much as Sweden, we would have 35,000 prisoners not 85,684. This would save nearly £2bn a year, enough to fund better community sentences and probation."

But that is a separate discussion from the one about phone-hacking.

This was as true before Huhne and Coulson were jailed as it was after, so I'd have more respect for his opinions if he'd been at the forefront of sentencing reform earlier, ahem.

[Flosshilde]

Yes, it's strange how politicians & celebrities are all for reform once they've been at the cutting edge, shall we say, of the institution. One could be generous & say that it's empathy, but I was far more sympathetic & convinced by 'Erwin James' (I think was the name) - a prisoner who used to write a column for the Guardian while he was in prison.


(& I wish the Graun would just have a black silhouette instead of the mugshot - that silly smirk is yet another nail in the coffin of my Guardian reading)

[french frank]

so I'd have more respect for his opinions if he'd been at the forefront of sentencing reform earlier, ahem.

I'm not sure what would have constituted being 'at the forefront', but as Home Affairs spokesman long before the days of coalition he did call for penal reform and alternatives to prison. But I expect that was just in case he got nabbed for some offence for which he could be sent to prison .........

[mercia]

if CH doesn't think phone-hacking is a serious offence do we assume that he doesn't think Mulcaire and Goodman should have received custodial sentences in 2007 for hacking royal phones ?

Who other than the law-making parliament decided that phone-hacking is a serious offence ? Parliament passed whichever telecommunications act it was that created the offence. Is it not parliament that decides which offences should carry custodial sentences ? The article seems to imply the judge was under some sort of public pressure to give a custodial sentence in this case, but surely he was merely following established guidelines (?).

If the victims of phone-hacking (and press intrusion in general) find it in their hearts to forgive the offenders, so be it, its not for CH or any of us to tell them they should forgive and forget

[jean]

Huhne calls Coulson's sentence schadenfreude...

But surely Schadenfreude means rejoicing at others' misfortune.

If you commit a crime and are found guilty, that is only a misfortune if we think crime does not matter.

The question of appropriate punishment is a separate issue altogether

[amateur51]

But surely Schadenfreude means rejoicing at others' misfortune.

If you commit a crime and are found guilty, that is only a misfortune if we think crime does not matter.

The question of appropriate punishment is a separate issue altogether

My bad, jean - I meant to write " Huhne calls the public's/Press' reaction to Coulson's sentence" etc.

[jean]

That's what I thought you meant!

[french frank]

surely he was merely following established guidelines (?).

I presume he was. I don't think that public pressure was (or should be) involved.

As for Schadenfreude, surely not glee at others' misfortune, but at their downfall. In fact all the more Freude if it was deserved. And if people say they had no feelings one way or another at Huhne and Coulson getting their comeuppance, I would find that hard to believe. :-)

As I said: Huhne not the best person to deliver a lecture, Coulson not the best person to use as an example. Though if anyone needed chapter and verse on Huhne's support for penal reform (no one questioned my claim), I googled Huhne and "penal reform" and found this, for what it's worth from 2008: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7618017.stm

It all hinges on how you would define a 'minor offence' weighed against the 'benefit to society' of sending a convicted criminal to extremely expensive accommodation at the tax-payers' expense.

[jean]

As for Schadenfreude, surely not glee at others' misfortune, but at their downfall. In fact all the more Freude if it was deserved.

'Malicious enjoyment of the misfortunes of others', the OED has.

The more deserved, the less malice in being pleased about it, surely?

[french frank]

The more deserved, the less malice in being pleased about it, surely?

I don't agree with that. Being 'pleased' about the misfortune of others is malicious. I don't think you can argue that that pleasure is 'justified' just because the misfortune was, in a measure, self-inflicted. A misfortune is due to bad luck, so it would need very special circumstances for anyone to take pleasure in the misfortunes of others without being malicious.

[jean]

I am pleased that Coulson got his comeuppance. Is that so very wrong of me?

[mercia]

well phone-hacking caused the downfall of a newspaper, had thousands of 'victims' and triggered a hugely expensive public enquiry - if, after all that, the 'perpetrators' got just a few hours of community service and a fine I think we'd all be thinking - what the heck was all that about. Perhaps we're thinking that anyway.

[P. G. Tipps]

I am pleased that Coulson got his comeuppance. Is that so very wrong of me?

Maybe a quite understandable human emotion in one who holds a particular antipathy towards another.

Is it wrong?

Well, you asked the question, and I would contend that it can hardly be described as particularly useful or constructive!