Competition ?

[MrGongGong]

I am trying to point out that the word is used is different ways according as it's applied to the individual and to the context.

Indeed that is true
but it would seem that for many people it's used in the same way regardless of context

In choosing which pieces to develop or perform (and i'm often in this position myself with other peoples work) one has to approach it with an ear/mind as to whether its possible to realise the potential of a particular piece within the context. Which is rather different from making straight judgements about "value".
One also has to bear in mind the stages of the creative process ..........

1. This is awesome
2. This is tricky
3. This is shit
4. I am shit
5. This might be ok
6. This is awesome.

[ahinton]

Indeed, MrGG. The situation is in no way improved by people behaving in competitive (= mutually antagonistic) ways. I can't help but compare the competitiveness of so many composers of notated music with the lack of competiveness (despite the far more limited institutional support) among people involved in free improvisation.

Fair (and interesting) comment, to be sure, but do you somehow equate the act of composition of notated music with attitudes of competitiveness per se and, if so, to what aspect of writing notated scores do you attribute the risk of such attitudes manifesting themselves? Surely there are plenty of composers of notated music to whom any notion of "competing" (i.e. against) with other composers is entirely foreign, if not anathema?

[Richard Barrett]

I am trying to point out that the word is used is different ways according as it's applied to the individual and to the context.

I'm still not sure, though, how precisely the word relates to the context. Institutions make decisions about commissioning and programming based on their own criteria, and actually there's nothing that the creative musicians themselves can do to influence this process, apart from making their music, whose qualities aren't really measurable. So in what sense is it meaningful to say that they're in competition? - compared to the football teams in your previous example, who can influence the outcome of the competition by scoring more goals.

[jean]

The context of the comment that was hived off to start this thread was posters choosing C20 composers they liked, and other posters dissing their choices - wasn't it?

Whether James MacMillan was aware of it or not (and I think he probably wasn't), he was in competition with other C20 composers for the approval of the messageboard posters - as were you.

That doesn't mean that either of you behaves towards others in a competitive way!

[teamsaint]

The context of the comment that was hived off to start this thread was posters choosing C20 composers they liked, and other posters dissing their choices - wasn't it?

Whether James MacMillan was aware of it or not (and I think he probably wasn't), he was in competition with other C20 composers for the approval of the messageboard posters - as were you.

That doesn't mean that either of you behaves towards others in a competitive way!

There is no limit on the music that one can approve of, surely, other than because of constraints like time?

James MacMillan doesn't have to compete for approval, although he might have to compete for airtime, or concert listings.

[jean]

...the football teams in your previous example, who can influence the outcome of the competition by scoring more goals.

Not my example, and I wouldn't have chosen it. But when ts wrote

The best football teams cooperate better than the bad ones. Any rubbish team can compete, like my old pub team...

there are surely two different contexts for competitive behaviour - one between the members of the team working together to achieve a common aim, and the other when the team meets another team, where such cooperative behaviour won't get you very far (unless you've got money on the result).

Neither is a very good analogy with the situation of a composer.

.

[jean]

There is no limit on the music that one can approve of, surely, other than because of constraints like time?

Not to mention the constraints of threads that restrict you to only eight composers!

What I am commenting on is the context of the original comment, which I read more as directed at the posters who were setting up one composer against another (with the implicartion that it's a situation replicated in the world outside the MB) than at the behaviour of the composers themselves.

As for composers being competitive, Sir Velo...

I wouldn't interpret Sir Velo's post in that way, but he hasn't been back himself to argue the point!

.

[teamsaint]

The thread is surely about the over valuing of the concept of competition, rather than specifically composer based !
Still think that football provides one useful lesson. It is seen as a field of activity where competition is paramount, and of course it is competitive, but success comes from cooperation with ones team mates. You can be extremely competitive, and still a very bad team. Try Fareham and gosport Sunday league division 6 , if you want to prove this.

[jean]

The thread is surely about the over valuing of the concept of competition...

In that case, it shouldn't have taken Sir Velo's comment as a starting point.

[jean]

...football...is seen as a field of activity where competition is paramount, and of course it is competitive, but success comes from cooperation with ones team mates. You can be extremely competitive, and still a very bad team.

See my #21.

[MrGongGong]

In that case, it shouldn't have taken Sir Velo's comment as a starting point.

Why on earth not ?
I am a composer, I know more about that than football
but surely music is often a 'mirror' of other things in society ?
(In a Smallist rather than Cyril Scott / David Tame way I mean ......)

[jean]

Because that's not what he meant!

[MrGongGong]

Because that's not what he meant!

But this wasn't a discussion about what he did or didn't mean

[jean]

No, but it isn't even what he said.

[MrGongGong]

No, but it isn't even what he said.

I really don't know what you are on about
I was prompted to start this because something I read made me muse a little on the idea of "competition"

Nothing to do with who said what
BUT if you look here here is the quote .......

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?9750-The-Rest-Is-Noise-Listening-To-The-Twentieth-Century-through-its-music&p=347762#post347762

This is what got me thinking

about being competitive , composing and the rest of the universe
if I wanted to discuss what "HE" said I wouldn't have started this one would I ?

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