Litter picking + Incarceration....the Conservative Way....

[scottycelt]

I'm not sure that I quite agree with your emphases here. Free bus passes are of no use to anyone where there are no buses nearby, whereas everyone needs heating and hot water.

I'm not sure I understand your point either. Presumably it is largely rural areas where there are no buses and people need cars just to live there. That is no reason to deny the bus passes to the very folk who need them the most, ie those elderly in poorer urban areas who have no private transport and cannot afford regular bus fares never mind hailing taxis.

Every pensioner needs heating and hot water but not every one requires a £200 annual allowance to provide that need. I agree with those who say the Tax Office can easily provide the information to help the authorities direct any financial help to where it is most needed.

The Government doesn't seem to have any problem identifying and financially assisting millionaires and billionaires through the tax regime so what's the problem identifying the very poorest pensioners who might need these benefits the most, instead of just offering them to every pensioner whether pauper or billionaire?

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm not sure I understand your point either. Presumably it is largely rural areas where there are no buses and people need cars just to live there. That is no reason to deny the bus passes to the very folk who need them the most, ie those elderly in poorer urban areas who have no private transport and cannot afford regular bus fares never mind hailing taxis.

Every pensioner needs heating and hot water but not every one requires a £200 annual allowance to provide that need. I agree with those who say the Tax Office can easily provide the information to help the authorities direct any financial help to where it is most needed.

The Government doesn't seem to have any problem identifying and financially assisting millionaires and billionaires through the tax regime so what's the problem identifying the very poorest pensioners who might need these benefits the most, instead of just offering them to every pensioner whether pauper or billionaire?

I'm with you on this, scotty.

[jean]

But neither of you is considering the cost of administering means-tested benefits, or the fact that there is known to be a failure to take them up - even (or especially) by those most in need and legally entitled to them.

[ahinton]

I'm not sure I understand your point either. Presumably it is largely rural areas where there are no buses and people need cars just to live there. That is no reason to deny the bus passes to the very folk who need them the most, ie those elderly in poorer urban areas who have no private transport and cannot afford regular bus fares never mind hailing taxis.

Every pensioner needs heating and hot water but not every one requires a £200 annual allowance to provide that need. I agree with those who say the Tax Office can easily provide the information to help the authorities direct any financial help to where it is most needed.

The Government doesn't seem to have any problem identifying and financially assisting millionaires and billionaires through the tax regime so what's the problem identifying the very poorest pensioners who might need these benefits the most, instead of just offering them to every pensioner whether pauper or billionaire?

But scotty, I've made it quite clear that I do not advocate either the abolition or the means testing of any of these current benefits and that the fact that not everyone can make good use of a bus pass but everyone can make good use of a winter fuel allowance is not, as I see it, a reason to maintain the latter at the expense of the former. Means testing of winter fuel allowances might sound sensible on the face of it but it's not so in pratice for a variety of reasons, not least that what might resulkt in the removal or reduction of that allowance one year could be different in another year -a nd it also offers yet more opportunities for HMRC to make mistakes that go challenged at the taxpayers' additional expense or unchallenged at the benefit recipient's expense. The winter fuel allownce simply doesn't cost Treasury enough to make it worth complicating and tampering with the specifics of its application.

Yes, it's mostly (though not entirely) those in rural areas who have no convenient bus services but, whilst these people would not constitute the majority where bus passes are concerned, the benefit of such passes is nevertheless
open only to those within easy reach of qualifying public bus services - and they're not exactly likely to increase in availability, since so few of them can get anywhere near making a profit that enables their successful continuation.

[ahinton]

But neither of you is considering the cost of administering means-tested benefits, or the fact that there is known to be a failure to take them up - even (or especially) by those most in need and legally entitled to them.

Well, I am - which is why I do not advocate making any changes to this.

[scottycelt]

But neither of you is considering the cost of administering means-tested benefits, or the fact that there is known to be a failure to take them up - even (or especially) by those most in need and legally entitled to them.

The only means test would be through the tax system based on annual income. We are all 'means tested' on that basis and get different tax allowances and rates depending on earnings and marital status.

So all pensioners earning under a certain figure ... say £15,000 ... could receive some form of authorisation following receipt of their tax return to apply to their local council for a free bus pass if they so wish. Much the same could be done with winter fuel allowance which could be forwarded on an income basis hence saving money on not giving it to those who earn more than the cut-off figure. There would be the inevitable borderline cases of course but that applies to any sort of tax/benefit arrangement. No system is perfect but some might be that bit more perfect than others!

Would that be so difficult and expensive to administer?

[Anna]

Reading a bit more about Milburn's proposal to strip benefits from pensioners, it appears his thinking is that only the poorest, i.e., those who claim pension credit, will retain bus passes, fuel allowances, etc., so no need for means testing.
I don't think I wish to say anything further at the moment and I have no idea what percentage do claim pension credit, but I think the whole proposal stinks.

[ahinton]

The only means test would be through the tax system based on annual income. We are all 'means tested' on that basis and get different tax allowances and rates depending on earnings and marital status.

So all pensioners earning under a certain figure ... say £15,000 ... could receive some form of authorisation following receipt of their tax return to apply to their local council for a free bus pass if they so wish. Much the same could be done with winter fuel allowance which could be forwarded on an income basis hence saving money on not giving it to those who earn more than the cut-off figure. There would be the inevitable borderline cases of course but that applies to any sort of tax/benefit arrangement. No system is perfect but some might be that bit more perfect than others!

Would that be so difficult and expensive to administer?

Yes, I rather fear that it would; it might sound straightforward enough but, given the sheer number and diversity of mistakes already made by tax offices, the prospect of complicating matters still further and opening up yet more opportunities for administrative error does not appeal.

[eighthobstruction]

Yes, I rather fear that it would; it might sound straightforward enough but, given the sheer number and diversity of mistakes already made by tax offices, the prospect of complicating matters still further and opening up yet more opportunities for administrative error does not appeal.

Surely the US NSA Prism software could sort 'means testing ' for us at the flick of a few switches....<snigger>

[ahinton]

Surely the US NSA Prism software could sort 'means testing ' for us at the flick of a few switches....<snigger>

I daresay that it could, presumably by snooping on all eligible people, applicants and non-applicants alike, threatening them all with the direst consequiences if they do not abandon their eligibility and any applications in process and ensuring that all possible available benefits be syphoned off into NSA's own pocket, although why this could not be done instead by our own local home-growm GCHQ remains unclear...

[jean]

So all pensioners earning under a certain figure ... say £15,000 ... could receive some form of authorisation following receipt of their tax return to apply to their local council for a free bus pass if they so wish. Much the same could be done with winter fuel allowance which could be forwarded on an income basis hence saving money on not giving it to those who earn more than the cut-off figure.

What makes you think that there wouldn't be costs involved in sorting out who earns less or more than your cut-off figure?

Especially as most poorer pensioners won't be filling in a tax return anyway (I don't!)

[ahinton]

What makes you think that there wouldn't be costs involved in sorting out who earns less or more than your cut-off figure?

Especially as most poorer pensioners won't be filling in a tax return anyway (I don't!)

This last is a good point that i'd not thought about; this would indeed be a nightmare for HMRC to deal with and, I think, firmly thrown the whole idea out!

[eighthobstruction]

I daresay that it could, presumably by snooping on all eligible people, applicants and non-applicants alike, threatening them all with the direst consequiences if they do not abandon their eligibility and any applications in process and ensuring that all possible available benefits be syphoned off into NSA's own pocket, although why this could not be done instead by our own local home-growm GCHQ remains unclear...

....damn you always find the foible in my plans....(did you know: foible - the most vulnerable part of a sword's blade, from the middle to the tip)

[ahinton]

....damn you always find the foible in my plans....(did you know: foible - the most vulnerable part of a sword's blade, from the middle to the tip)

It is indeed said that the nib is mightier than the foible...

[scottycelt]

What makes you think that there wouldn't be costs involved in sorting out who earns less or more than your cut-off figure?

Especially as most poorer pensioners won't be filling in a tax return anyway (I don't!)

There is a cost element to everything. It seems to me it has to be easier to award benefits according to income ... it's all already there on computer ... certainly cheaper than giving £200 to every pensioner that fancies claiming for a day out to the races.

As I say it's already done in other areas like allowances so I fail to see what you find so difficult about it all. If they can reduce taxes for billionaires through the existing system what's so costly and difficult about providing benefits for the most needy by the same route?

If you are of sound mind and you do not complete an annual tax return then of course you may not receive a benefit to which you are entitled.

In that case you would only have yourself to blame, now, wouldn't you ...?