Litter picking + Incarceration....the Conservative Way....

[eighthobstruction]

(In brief)I do believe that young people capable to work (which is most of them) should be looking for a job and means to support themselves. It is generally the best way for mind body and soul.

This idea of in Work or in Education and training for all 18-25 year olds + the added bonus of not getting Housing Benefit looks to be policies that will be fraught with the odour of misadventure (rotting Poll Tax) in these days of mass unemployment - zero hours contracts - and the majority of new jobs being part-time.

My feeling (and I hope some bright spark will put this to a legal test) that what they propose is people being made to work for less than the NMW.

Secondly, I wonder if they have calculated how many teachers/trainers/counsellors/mentors/+rod and carrot wavers....plus class rooms/facilities/etc to put this into action....taking into account that the DWP has spent the last few years reducing staff....and increasing private commercial partnership....

Many of my friends with children in this age range are tearing their hair out with frustration and rage at the prospects v potential v resources v employment mal- practise , + the possibility of having to see their children in this condition for some time yet....

[eighthobstruction]

Young people not best served , especially those from poor families with low skills....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

[Serial_Apologist]

It is now being admitted by voices in the establishment that for the first time in over 100 years future generations will be materially less well off than their parents' generation as a consequence of rising house prices, student debt and paucity of living waged work.

One way in which capitalism survived post WW2 was by inaugurating the welfare state and then turning exploitation into consumerism. Now that that particular safeguard has been undermined, once the material consequences really hit home, especially for those encouraged to look down noses at those lower down on the social ladder, the associated illusions will be blown to smithereens, and I for one don't think the ruling class will be left with a leg to stand on... which explains why the trade unions had to be emasculated and why repressive arm of the state has been trained up for the denouement that is to come.

[Anna]

It is now being admitted by voices in the establishment that for the first time in over 100 years future generations will be materially less well off than their parents' generation as a consequence of rising house prices, student debt and paucity of living waged work.

I'm sorry S_A, but what has rising house prices and student debt has to do with the fact that:

"Unlike other developed countries, the study also showed that young people in England are no better at these tests than older people, in the 55 to 65 age range.

When this is weighted with other factors, such as the socio-economic background of people taking the test, it shows that England is the only country in the survey where results are going backwards - with the older cohort better than the younger.

The study shows that there are 8.5 million adults in England and Northern Ireland with the numeracy levels of a 10-year-old" (Quoted from the article link above by 8obs.)

What we should be addressing is why the education system (and parents) are so dismally failing children isn't it?

[Richard Barrett]

What we should be addressing is why the education system (and parents) are so dismally failing children isn't it?

That is certainly one of the things we should be addressing, but it's just one aspect of the process S_A is talking about. The education system is not failing wealthy people, I think you'll find.

[Anna]

That is certainly one of the things we should be addressing, but it's just one aspect of the process S_A is talking about. The education system is not failing wealthy people, I think you'll find.

Yes, but the educational system has never failed poor people has it? In the past, there were Grammar Schools, Mechanics Institutues, Working Man Institutes, OK, it was all a bit, Victorians teaching the lower classes, but it worked. Didn't it? There's loads of folks here who have said there were inspired by the Third Prog - but where is that now?

Bluddy X-Boxes and an addiction to sugar!

And, do you know what Richard, as a family who has moved themselves from the Aber to the Rhumney to the Rhonnda valley in seach of enlightment and education, can I say your music is OK, some of the times
Sometines it does require, a bit more intelligence and patience (than I am prepared to give)

[jean]

In the past, there were Grammar Schools, Mechanics Institutues, Working Man Institutes, OK, it was all a bit, Victorians teaching the lower classes, but it worked. Didn't it?

Grammar schools worked brilliantly for those who were selected to go to them - and who were also suited to them, of course (that wasn't everyone).

These days, people forget what happened to the rest, not least because there was plenty of low-skilled, low-paid work to absorb them.

[Richard Barrett]

I suppose my view on the education aspect of these things is coloured by my having come up through the comprehensive system in the 1970s which enabled me to go to a leading university on a full LEA grant, but I have a deep aversion to any kind of multi-tier school system - as Jean says, when there were plenty of un- and semi-skilled jobs for those who didn't make it to (or in) grammar school, the class-based inequality of that system wasn't so blatantly obvious.

And as Anna says there was the Third Programme too... another casualty of the process referred to be S_A, by which the ruling class has made good the dents it received in the 1960s and 1970s and tightened its grip on power, to the point that the social problems we're talking about stand little chance of being addressed without some very profound upheavals in the political landscape.

(& by the way it's nice of you to say so Anna, but actually I would hope that one of the possibilities is to "just listen"!)

[Dave2002]

It's not only young people in the 18-25 age range who are affected by the low employment situation. There are quite a number in the age range 25-40 who are in difficulties, either without a job, or retraining in the hope of something better in a few years. Many of these are being supported by their parents, either financially, or living at home with them etc. Admittedly the better off are able to survive better than those from low income families, or where there is a very small if any asset cushion, but nevertheless this situation is affecting many people.

One possibility is that young people will have to accept that they can't have everything - it was always thus. That would only go part of the way towards "solving" or ameliorating the difficulties, though.

There always were difficulties regarding matching aspirations and practical ability to support oneself, so in that respect there's little new today.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's not only young people in the 18-25 age range who are affected by the low employment situation. There are quite a number in the age range 25-40 who are in difficulties, either without a job, or retraining in the hope of something better in a few years. Many of these are being supported by their parents, either financially, or living at home with them etc. Admittedly the better off are able to survive better than those from low income families, or where there is a very small if any asset cushion, but nevertheless this situation is affecting many people.

One possibility is that young people will have to accept that they can't have everything - it was always thus. That would only go part of the way towards "solving" or ameliorating the difficulties, though.

There always were difficulties regarding matching aspirations and practical ability to support oneself, so in that respect there's little new today.

That's all very well; but what happens when the current 18-40 years old group are old enough to have teenage children of their own, whom they, (unlike some of the present 50 + generation), cannot afford to fund through uni to having a mortgage?

[MrGongGong]

Grammar schools worked brilliantly for those who were selected to go to them - and who were also suited to them, of course (that wasn't everyone).

These days, people forget what happened to the rest, not least because there was plenty of low-skilled, low-paid work to absorb them.

Passing the 11Plus was a big mistake for my musical education which is why I left at 16 and went to art college

If I had "failed" I would have had a really imaginative music teacher (and gone to school with Daniel Craig rather than Andy McCluskey !)

[jean]

Passing the 11Plus was a big mistake for my musical education...

My sister says exactly that about her art education!

[scottycelt]

Grammar schools worked brilliantly for those who were selected to go to them - and who were also suited to them, of course (that wasn't everyone).

These days, people forget what happened to the rest, not least because there was plenty of low-skilled, low-paid work to absorb them.

Well, somebody has to do the low-skilled, low-paid work. Not everyone can attain high-skilled, high-paid work.

The injustice is not an education system which separates pupils according to natural intelligence and knowledge but the pay-rates for so-called 'low-skilled' work which is often the most essential work of all to keep us alive never mind anything else.

For example, where would any of us be without navvies building roads, factory workers manufacturing clothes, agricultural workers providing meat and vegetables, and then shop workers ultimately distributing these basic necessities of life?

It is an affront to both fairness and logic that such workers are so poorly paid whilst both billionaire capitalists and wealthy champagne socialists enjoy their over-rich pickings at the expense of essential workers.

Roll on the Centrist Revolution!

[jean]

Well, somebody has to do the low-skilled, low-paid work. Not everyone can attain high-skilled, high-paid work.

No, scotty, and you are quite right that the low-skilled, low-paid work ought to be better rewarded.

But my point is that there isn't as much of it as there used to be, and that's why people are worrying about the attainments of the less academic. They never used to even notice.

.

[Richard Barrett]

It is an affront to both fairness and logic that such workers are so poorly paid

It's certainly an affront to fairness, but not, unfortunately, to logic.