A Study of AUNT

[Mr Pee]

New entry in Uxbridge English Dictionary:
Peerage; intemperacy arising from challenges to a false belief that having nothing to hide means having nothing to fear.

I think you will find that word Peerage has already been taken.

Don't give up the day job, will you?

[scottycelt]

All right, you grossly exaggerate.

You said "The notion that all women work in menial jobs while men automatically scale up the lucrative pay ladder is a figment of feminist imagination and has little basis in fact."

I said Msg 41 , "Of course, women may be doing more menial work, rather than the same work." That was simply to suggest why the stats show women as earning less (the educational attainment then poses more questions). If women are at home looking after young children they don't have a lot of opportunity during that time to improve their career prospects.

You said: "The world of employment you paint is certainly not one I remember and that the birth of a child in a normal relationship is somehow no responsibility of the woman."

Where did anyone suggest that? It was the opposite: that, as far possible men, should shoulder an equal share, not the whole of it.

You say: "Never at any time do you even acknowledge the point about how there are plenty of women in modern society who are paid much more than plenty of men ."

That suggests innumeracy. If one quotes 'mean' hourly earnings for men and women, it signifies just that (as I made clear in Msg 49): that some men may earn less than some women, and some men may earn less than some men, and some women may earn less than some women, but the M-E-A-N shows that on average women earn less.

You say: "However, at least it's now clear that it's not really 'equality' we are talking about but 'special treatment' for women in the workplace."

What is the 'special treatment' that anyone is advocating? No one is advocating longer maternity leave than paternity leave. They are advocating equal pay.

It's not a question of what anyone is advocating it's what new mothers and fathers are entitled to in employment. Not just regular pay, but the whole package.

https://www.gov.uk/maternity-pay-leave

https://www.gov.uk/paternity-pay-leave

What I'm trying to say is that if you believe fathers should shoulder an equal share of the responsibilities in looking after baby then there should be equality in benefits, remuneration, call it what you like! If the father is expected to do an 'equal' share why should the mother receive a far greater entitlement? Equality in employment has to work both ways!

I'm not advocating this sort of 'equality', as I've already clearly stated, but I'd have thought you would be all in favour as that would be the logical consequence of a genuine 'equality' argument.

Okay, I've now finally given up trying ...

[ahinton]

I think you will find that word Peerage has already been taken.

If it has, then so be it. Where it's been taken I do not know. I will not, however, "find" this unless I take the trouble to look, a pointless exercise in which I am not prepared to spend time.

Don't give up the day job, will you?

I'm not sure if that's meant as a wish, an instruction or a question (not that it matters one way or the other) but "if there's no meaning in it, said the king..." and all that prompts me to note that, as it's very hard for a non-smoker to give up smoking, it's an equally tough call for someone who has never held employed office to give up any "job", whether a day or night one; one might perhaps argue, Peestyle, that if one has no "job" one has nothing to fear (except perhaps the otherwise fearful Iain Duncan Smith)...

[scottycelt]

Moan, whinge, blather, moan. Fess up, you hate the fact that women's needs as mothers are getting met by employers, and that men's priority is slipping downwards (tho' it still has a long way to go, according to the evidence that The Fawcett Society that I have cited)). Both french frank & I have used the term 'level playingfield' but you insist on banging on about equality which gets us nowhere.

And from the very one who constantly preaches to others about 'moving goalposts' ... :laugh:

So sex 'equality' is now declared dead on this thread though it was first introduced by french frank and my name (with others) was mentioned by you even before I (and the others) had even got around to posting anything at all!

[amateur51]

Isn't that what all this is about?

Make your mind up, for heaven's sake!

Because scotty continually perverts the meaning of equality as understood (that word again) by many people, I introduced the idea of a level playing field.

That's all.

[amateur51]

And from the very one who constantly preaches to others about 'moving goalposts' ... :laugh:

So sex 'equality' is now declared dead on this thread though it was first introduced by french frank and my name (with others) was mentioned by you even before I (and the others) had even got around to posting anything at all!

I don't preach I leave that to religious folk (ahem).

You have wheedled and slithered all over the notion of 'equality' so the notion of 'a level playing field has been introduceed in an attempt to get you to take these issues seruiously.

Coming as you do from a middle-class white heterosexual male privileged background, of course you hate engaging with these ideas, and your fury is understandable.

[Mr Pee]

I don't preach I leave that to religious folk (ahem).

You have wheedled and slithered all over the notion of 'equality' so the notion of 'a level playing field has been introduceed in an attempt to get you to take these issues seruiously.

Coming as you do from a middle-class white heterosexual male privileged background, of course you hate engaging with these ideas, and your fury is understandable.

Do please clarify for us, in the context of this discussion, please clarify the difference between seeking "equality" and seeking "a level playing field." <erm>

[amateur51]

Do please clarify for us, in the context of this discussion, precisely how you quantify the difference between seeking "equality" and seeking "a level playing field." <erm>

How do you mean "quantify"?

[french frank]

What I'm trying to say is that if you believe fathers should shoulder an equal share of the responsibilities in looking after baby then there should be equality in benefits, remuneration, call it what you like! If the father is expected to do an 'equal' share why should the mother receive a far greater entitlement? Equality in employment has to work both ways!

I'm not advocating this sort of 'equality', as I've already clearly stated, but I'd have thought you would be all in favour as that would be the logical consequence of a genuine 'equality' argument.

Okay, I've now finally given up trying ...

No one is going round insisting that fathers have got to have less than mothers. So I don't know why you're so aggrieved about it. But personally I would say the most important person in the equation is the child; and the priority is to ensure that the parents have enough leave to ensure that the child has adequate parental care, without arguing as to whether the father has the leave or the mother. But it appears there's 'Statutory Additional Paternity Leave and Pay' which the father can be entitled to if the mother goes back to work. Confirmation? In which case it would be between the couple concerned not 'feminists' and down-trodden men. It's a government matter.

I would return to the idea that it's about need before rigid 'equality'. Where 'need' is greater equality is not the priority.

[Richard Barrett]

the most important person in the equation is the child

This is true.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Or was it just that we lived in the country and there weren't many young people to distract us?

Speak for yourself; I was raised in the east end of a bombed-out northern coastal town.

[Mr Pee]

How do you mean "quantify"?

If you are unable to provide an answer, as I suspect, then just say so.

[french frank]

Speak for yourself; I was raised in the east end of a bombed-out northern coastal town.

Apologies: the 'we' I referred to was my family. And I was thinking mainly of my pre-secondary school years.

[scottycelt]

No one is going round insisting that fathers have got to have less than mothers. So I don't know why you're so aggrieved about it. But personally I would say the most important person in the equation is the child; and the priority is to ensure that the parents have enough leave to ensure that the child has adequate parental care, without arguing as to whether the father has the leave or the mother. But it appears there's 'Statutory Additional Paternity Leave and Pay' which the father can be entitled to if the mother goes back to work. Confirmation? In which case it would be between the couple concerned not 'feminists' and down-trodden men. It's a government matter.

I would return to the idea that it's about need before rigid 'equality'. Where 'need' is greater equality is not the priority.

I agree with most of that ... however, I'm rather too old to be 'aggrieved' about paternity leave and I'm merely querying the logic of the 'equality' argument which has to be complete or else it can't possibly be called equality!

Certainly 'need' must be the very first priority, and we are certainly at one on that.

[amateur51]

If you are unable to provide an answer, as I suspect, then just say so.

Your original question as posed does not make sense, hence my question.