A Study of AUNT

[ahinton]

Oh heavens no, amsey. Women are different just like men. How can we be an 'expert' on others when we don't know their innermost thoughts?

Yet it has been my experience that women sometimes give birth to babies and men never do, so naturally I excluded the latter when making the remark.

Once males start giving birth whilst in employment I shall readily and enthusiastically campaign for equal pay rates for both sexes!

Get the general idea?

No. Has it not occurred to you that, in most cases, although women actually have babies, men usually play a rôle in this process, as has at least been recognised in part in recent times by the recognition of the need for paternity leave? If your argument against equal pay for women is predicated solely upon the risk that those of child-bearing age might have babies while in employment, it's a pretty weak one and, in any case, what evidence is there that female employees who are unable to have babies for health reasons or are above what is currently recognised as child-bearing age are in receipt of equal pay?

[Mr Pee]

Of course you wanted to discuss babies because therein lies the sole major difference. But does it explain why women who do the same job as men being paid at a different hourly rate? Really?

Please provide examples. I have worked in the RAF, in the Entertainment and leisure industry, and also have a part- time job at a major retailer. In all these examples, stretching back to 1987, males and females are paid the same rate.

[ahinton]

Please provide examples. I have worked in the RAF, in the Entertainment and leisure industry, and also have a part- time job at a major retailer. In all these examples, stretching back to 1987, males and females are paid the same rate.

Welll, that's indeed good to hear, but I don't think that anone was suggesting that no female employees anywhere are paid at the same rate as their male colleagues and I imagine that even you, particularly given the length of your experience in such matters to which you draw attention here, would accept that a greater proportion of women in the workplace receive equal pay today than was the case 30 or 40 years ago although such parity is by no means common to all employed offices today.

[Mr Pee]

Welll, that's indeed good to hear, but I don't think that anone was suggesting that no female employees anywhere are paid at the same rate as their male colleagues and I imagine that even you, particularly given the length of your experience in such matters to which you draw attention here, would accept that a greater proportion of women in the workplace receive equal pay today than was the case 30 or 40 years ago although such parity is by no means common to all employed offices today.

Which is why I asked for some specific examples of companies or organisations in which women are paid less than men.

[scottycelt]

Please provide examples. I have worked in the RAF, in the Entertainment and leisure industry, and also have a part- time job at a major retailer. In all these examples, stretching back to 1987, males and females are paid the same rate.

That has been my experience as well in retail. I'd have also thought it may well be illegal to advertise the same post with two different pay rates for men and women, but I'm no legal expert.

Of course employers invariably offer employees different rates of pay whatever their gender. It is almost certain that in most large companies and organisations these days a woman may be paid more than a man doing the same job, just as vice-versa?

[scottycelt]

No. Has it not occurred to you that, in most cases, although women actually have babies, men usually play a rôle in this process, as has at least been recognised in part in recent times by the recognition of the need for paternity leave?

Yes it did (occur to me) and now that you've introduced the subject ...

If men and women are now supposed to be 'equal' in all matters why is typical Paternity Leave much shorter than Maternity Leave?

Discrimination!

[amateur51]

Yes it did (occur to me) and now that you've introduced the subject ...

If men and women are now supposed to be 'equal' in all matters why is typical Paternity Leave much shorter than Maternity Leave?

Discrimination!

Have you ever been through the physiological process of carrying a developing baby and giving birth to it, and then breast-feeding it & learning to care for it may have something to do with the parental leave differences.

All the man has done is two minutes of aerobic activity and spasm, followed weeks later by ante-natal classes, plus may be a spot of decoration.

[amateur51]

Please provide examples. I have worked in the RAF, in the Entertainment and leisure industry, and also have a part- time job at a major retailer. In all these examples, stretching back to 1987, males and females are paid the same rate.

Here's the latest TUC information I can find ...

"Women in their 50s earn nearly a fifth less than men of the same age - the widest gender pay gap of any age group - according to a TUC analysis published ahead of the latest unemployment figures due out today (Wednesday)."

"The TUC analysis of the pay and jobs of women over the age of 50 shows that despite a dramatic rise in the number of women working past 50, low pay and pensioner poverty remain major concerns for them as they approach retirement."

"A woman in her 50s working full-time currently earns £11.99 per hour - 18 per cent less hour than a man of a similar age (£14.69). This compares to a 10 per cent gender pay gap across the workforce as a whole. Women in their 50s also earn less than women in their 30s (£14.17) and 40s (£12.93)."

http://www.tuc.org.uk/equality-issues/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap-twice-large-women-their-50s

[ahinton]

Here's the latest TUC information I can find ...

"Women in their 50s earn nearly a fifth less than men of the same age - the widest gender pay gap of any age group - according to a TUC analysis published ahead of the latest unemployment figures due out today (Wednesday)."

"The TUC analysis of the pay and jobs of women over the age of 50 shows that despite a dramatic rise in the number of women working past 50, low pay and pensioner poverty remain major concerns for them as they approach retirement."

"A woman in her 50s working full-time currently earns £11.99 per hour - 18 per cent less hour than a man of a similar age (£14.69). This compares to a 10 per cent gender pay gap across the workforce as a whole. Women in their 50s also earn less than women in their 30s (£14.17) and 40s (£12.93)."

http://www.tuc.org.uk/equality-issue...omen-their-50s

Thank you for this; that's most interesting, especially since the reference to women aged 50 and above implies that the "risk" of requiring absence from work on account of childbirth is minimal. The £11.99 and £14.69 hourly figures are presumably average ones and, although each seems incredibly low, it's the difference between them that we're concerned with here. It's not clear in what kinds of work these figures would apply, of course and it sounds as though they relate largely to "blue-collar" occupations rather than others, but they're still interesting to note; one wonders whether such unionised employees as head teachers and others at or near the tops of their respective professions evidence the same or similar differenes betwen male and female salary levels.

[scottycelt]

Have you ever been through the physiological process of carrying a developing baby and giving birth to it, and then breast-feeding it & learning to care for it may have something to do with the parental leave differences.

All the man has done is two minutes of aerobic activity and spasm, followed weeks later by ante-natal classes, plus may be a spot of decoration.

Ahhhhh ... so men and women are different after all ... I had always rather suspected that. And women are considered more 'equal' than men?

Thanks for the confirmation.

[french frank]

As far as I can see the ONS stats for 2012 showed the mean hourly rate (basic, no overtime) was £14.05 for women, £16.50 for men. Of course, women may be doing more menial work, rather than the same work. This is interesting, given that an extremely detailed study concludes: "Females are nowadays on average more successful than males at all levels of the education system ..."

http://www.earlhamsociologypages.co.uk/gendeedachiev.html

I was interested to that as long ago as 1945 the 11+ exam set the pass rate slightly higher for girls than for boys (so that boys 'stood an equal chance' of passing and going on to 'grammar school'?). In the early 1970s the same was said to be true of the medical school entry requirements at my then university, to ensure that the school had a roughly equal number of male and female students.

I think (getting back to the topic) these are the kinds of issues that 'feminists' have sought to address. Controversial? Should the BBC be 'neutral' on such matters?

[ahinton]

Ahhhhh ... so men and women are different after all ... I had always rather suspected that. And women are considered more 'equal' than men?

Thanks for the confirmation.

...but no thanks for your new-found reluctance to enter into the discussion about inequalities between the pay received from employers by some men and women; no one's ever sought to suggest here that men and women are not "different" - indeed, it is the very differences between the pay of some employed males and females that is under scrutiny here, in case you'd either forgotten or somehow omitted to notice...

[ahinton]

As far as I can see the ONS stats for 2012 showed the mean hourly rate (basic, no overtime) was £14.05 for women, £16.50 for men. Of course, women may be doing more menial work, rather than the same work.

Some women might, but that's surely not the point when comparing male apples with female apples rather than female oranges - in other words when comparing the pay of males and females from the same employer for doing the same work for the same number of hours.

[french frank]

Some women might, but that's surely not the point when comparing male apples with female apples rather than female oranges - in other words when comparing the pay of males and females from the same employer for doing the same work for the same number of hours.

If you can get the full stats for men and women doing the same work for the same hours, perhaps you'd post them. My point about women doing more menial work was that that was at odds with their (average) educational attainment being better than boys' - so why would they be doing more menial jobs?

[scottycelt]

...but no thanks for your new-found reluctance to enter into the discussion about inequalities between the pay received from employers by some men and women; no one's ever sought to suggest here that men and women are not "different" - indeed, it is the very differences between the pay of some employed males and females that is under scrutiny here, in case you'd either forgotten or somehow omitted to notice...

I don't honestly think I can be accused of any particular reluctance into entering any discussion on such matters :grin:. The fact that some members don't appear to understand the points I make is a quite separate matter altogether.

I have already stated that there are pay differences between men and men and women and women. Employers discriminate every time they hire staff at interviews, whether they be male or female.

It is no use saying that women should get the same pay as men on the grounds of 'equality' and then clearly discriminate in other areas like maternity and paternity leave. It's really that simple.

I don't believe in the sort of discriminatory and bogus 'equality' to which others here subscribe, so I fully support the idea that because of gender differences we can't always treat everyone exactly the same.

Of course women should get proper maternity leave, but the logic of the 'equality' argument (which I think is nonsense) is that fathers should enjoy the same rights as women. I assume that if you believe that women must always enjoy the same employment remuneration as men doing the same job then men should automatically enjoy the same rights as women?

So do you believe in real equality or the discriminatory and bogus one?