Poor value pensions....

[Beef Oven!]

some interesting stuff here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/09/eu-immigration-uk_n_3893889.html

Non EU nationals in employment in the UK rose approx 90k pA over the last 10 years.

also some suggestion that, in terms of wealth creation, that net immigration is good news.
Of course its only one part of the story. If this country actually got round to building houses as the necessity that it is, life might be rather better all round.
Well except for those in the south east whose house prices might suffer a little bit.

He he, keep believing ts ;-)

We 'need' immigrants because there is no one among the million or so unemployed youfs here who's got the much needed skills to serve an espresso in Starbucks or hand-wash your car, train as a nurse etc!

[teamsaint]

according to that report, (no idea of its provenance) the non EU immigrants are increasing the skill levels in this country.
Of course, if we actually trained more skilled people it would help.


What is it i need to keep believing in, Beefy?
Not sure my list of beliefs is all that long these days.

Look up thread, and I did talk about the nonsense of youth un and under empolyment, not least among our graduates.

[Beef Oven!]

according to that report, (no idea of its provenance) the non EU immigrants are increasing the skill levels in this country.
Of course, if we actually trained more skilled people it would help.

The report shows that EU immigrants are engaged in work that accounts for 2% of GDP (£60bln, they say).

Rather misleadingly they used the word 'contributes'.

For a minute there I thought we talking about £60bln of wealth creation from immigrant entrepreneurs and professionals, investing in businesses, buying goods, services and property, paying taxes, employing people who in turn pay taxes and so on, and so on.

Sadly, what it really means, is that they are occupying 2% of the 'floor-space' where our own graduates, trainees and unemployed people should be.

[teamsaint]

The report shows that EU immigrants are engaged in work that accounts for 2% of GDP (£60bln, they say).

Rather misleadingly they used the word 'contributes'.

For a minute there I thought we talking about £60bln of wealth creation from immigrant entrepreneurs and professionals, investing in businesses, buying goods, services and property, paying taxes, employing people who in turn pay taxes and so on, and so on.

Sadly, what it really means, is that they are occupying 2% of the 'floor-space' where our own graduates, trainees and unemployed people should be.

We should, to use your word, be making sure that there are opportunities for the groups that you mention. We need to make sure that there are resources and infrastructure for the people who live here, and that has to be done with regard to overall numbers.
However, the problems that we have stem from governments determined to keep working people short of opportunity.
Why don't we train more people for the shortage professions? Why don't we build more houses? why to we have inadequate public transport?
Its not all bad luck. immigration policy is just one tool in their armoury.
Stop net immigration, and they would find other ways to keep people divided .

The big question persists? why are we working to older and older ages, while our yoof struggle to get trained, jobs, housing, whatever?

[Beef Oven!]

We should, to use your word, be making sure that there are opportunities for the groups that you mention. We need to make sure that there are resources and infrastructure for the people who live here, and that has to be done with regard to overall numbers.
However, the problems that we have stem from governments determined to keep working people short of opportunity.
Why don't we train more people for the shortage professions? Why don't we build more houses? why to we have inadequate public transport?
Its not all bad luck. immigration policy is just one tool in their armoury.
Stop net immigration, and they would find other ways to keep people divided .

The big question persists? why are we working to older and older ages, while our yoof struggle to get trained, jobs, housing, whatever?

I agree with much of that :thumbs-up

[amateur51]

The report shows that EU immigrants are engaged in work that accounts for 2% of GDP (£60bln, they say).

Rather misleadingly they used the word 'contributes'.

For a minute there I thought we talking about £60bln of wealth creation from immigrant entrepreneurs and professionals, investing in businesses, buying goods, services and property, paying taxes, employing people who in turn pay taxes and so on, and so on.

Sadly, what it really means, is that they are occupying 2% of the 'floor-space' where our own graduates, trainees and unemployed people should be.

Two per cent is a very small percentage.

What plans does UKIP have to force, I mean persuade, British employers to hire British workers, then BeefO?

What did Godfrey advise before he was kicked out?

[Resurrection Man]

.....
Like the record numbers (including immigrants) IN work and paying taxes, for the NHS that they "drain". remind me who pays for that?....

[sigh]...economics 101 again. Tax revenues into the Exchequer = available money to spend on things like education and NHS. One hopes perhaps not unreasonably that those planning for the future and anticipating what the likely expenditure on social housing, education and NHS is going to be are basing this on a reasonably known population. Then open the floodgates and allow effectively unfettered immigration and suddenly the demand on these services goes through the roof. So where is the money going to come from ? People who have lived here all their lives, paid their taxes and now are finding it difficult to get social housing because the demand now and because of unfettered immigration exceeds available resources. I call that inequality.

Edit. It might be worth asking why our society values footballers so highly. It isn't what is being paid on ticket prices, but has a lot to do with control of the media.

Don't understand the point you are trying to make. Footballers get obscenely high salaries. That is inequality.

[Resurrection Man]

Two per cent is a very small percentage.

What plans does UKIP have to force, I mean persuade, British employers to hire British workers, then BeefO?

What did Godfrey advise before he was kicked out?

Rule 101 of ams. When losing an argument, throw in another red herring.

[Resurrection Man]

Well I'm sure you feel better after that deeply patronising and rather unpleasant exercise in stating the obvious.

The really interesting bit to me is the last part where you seem to be convinced that you'll be in control right to the end. I hope you're right but looking around, I'd not put money on it. Perhaps start reaching out rather than pushing away is the name of the game before then? We're all in this together in ways that David Cameron has never given thought to. There are certainly resources enough in the world even now to solve a good many of the present's and the future's problems.These problems are soluble but not by people who smugly stare down from their lofty towers of condescension shaking their heads at the folly of the worker ants. It requires a whole new way (to them) of thinking.

Remind me about your Mali tribesman whom you gave a little space to in an earlier 'argument' when it suited you but who now seems to have been discarded. Where does he fit in now? What does he think about how resources are shared out, locally, internationally and globally?

And you say that I am patronising. Please, give me a break. [yawn..bored now..emoticon]. You really do know how to drone on. Same old. Same old. Bleedin' 'earts. Bless.

[teamsaint]

RM, its really simple. Even with the very high net immigration into this country, the vast majority of those immigrants, are working, paying tax and so on. They are not "just" a drain on the NHS resources. They help to pay for them.

As for the footballers point, i don't know how to make it any simpler really.

We have some very odd values in our society,and they aren't in direct proportion to vale added.
EG. Take a run of the mill £1m a year premier league player out of the league, and nobody would really notice. He doesn't add £1m (or whatever) of value. But (our out of kilter) society enables him to earn that.

[amateur51]

And you say that I am patronising. Please, give me a break. [yawn..bored now..emoticon]. You really do know how to drone on. Same old. Same old. Bleedin' 'earts. Bless.

Typical, use a Mali tribesman when it suits you, cast him aside like a used Kleenex when you're done.

[eighthobstruction]

Oh Joy !!

[Anna]

We have some very odd values in our society,and they aren't in direct proportion to valie added.
EG. Take a run of the mill £1m a year premier league player out of the league, and nobody would really notice. He doesn't add £1m (or whatever) of value. But (our out of kilter) society enables him to earn that.

I have to say, that's about the most sensible thing I've read on here! <banned thumbs up emoticon>

[Beef Oven!]

RM, its really simple. Even with the very high net immigration into this country, the vast majority of those immigrants, are working, paying tax and so on. They are not "just" a drain on the NHS resources. They help to pay for them.

If only it was that simple, ts.

The tax revenues from people (immigrants or otherwise) won't cover their NHS, education etc costs, if they have a couple of kids; not until they've got their earnings over approximately £30k, and been earning that for a while (yes, I know that salary level wouldn't keep you or me in Stilton, and would force us to buy our CDs from those nasty people at Amazon).

But it's not about that. This and previous governments have been happy to rely on a vast industrial reserve army of workers and pay our own people not to work. It's how they hang on to power. Hanging on to power is what it's about.

[teamsaint]

If only it was that simple, ts.

The tax revenues from people (immigrants or otherwise) won't cover their NHS, education etc costs, if they have a couple of kids; not until they've got their earnings over approximately £30k, and been earning that for a while (yes, I know that salary level wouldn't keep you or me in Stilton, and would force us to buy our CDs from those nasty people at Amazon).

But it's not about that. This and previous governments have been happy to rely on a vast industrial reserve army of workers and pay our own people not to work. It's how they hang on to power. Hanging on to power is what it's about.

My "Simple" point was that they don't "Just " drain. But I take your point that its a complex picture.

You are bang on the money about power. (which includes money of course).

Edit: I don't like blue cheese at all, but I like white Stilton.