HS2....who/what should we believe?....

[jean]

...I do not think, as a non-Christian, that it would be morally tenable for me to regard it as providing any kind of defence for me...

I thought you might think that.

I might wonder what scotty would think about that...

I doubt if scotty would have any truck with the KJV - he will pass straight from the Vulgate through Douai and Knox to whatever execrable English version they're offering round his way these days.

But the Vulgate illustrates neatly what I edited into my post above - in the verse I cited, St Jerome does indeed give us an Acc. & Inf :

Venit autem Jesus in partes Cæsareæ Philippi: et interrogabat discipulos suos, dicens: Quem dicunt homines esse Filium hominis?

At illi dixerunt: Alii Joannem Baptistam, alii autem Eliam, alii vero Jeremiam, aut unum ex prophetis.

Dicit illis Jesus: Vos autem, quem me esse dicitis?

Respondens Simon Petrus dixit: Tu es Christus, Filius Dei vivi.

[vinteuil]

No.

The (grammatical) object of an active verb becomes the (grammatical) subject when you recast the sentence as passive.

Thus

Whom should we believe? and Who should be believed? are both correct.

The hypercorrection we saw in the original But whom do you think should be believed? arises probably because the writer thinks whom is the object of think.

But you are in good company - the authors of the KJV wrote (Matthew 16, 13): Whom doe men say, that I, the sonne of man, am?

(And people may have dim memories of Latin Accusative and Infinitive. That's not so common in English unless you're John Milton, and even Milton couldn't do it with all verbs of saying, thinking, feeling -but it would give Whom do you believe yourself to be? as against Who do you think you are?)


.

Jean's illustrations are always a joy!

A simpler approach might be to think of how things wd look if you used brackets -

"But whom ( do you think ) should be believed?" ... is visibly wrong, n'est-ce pas?

[ahinton]

I doubt if scotty would have any truck with the KJV

Apart from possibly offering some side comment about King James VI of Scotland, peut-être...

he will pass straight from the Vulgate through Douai and Knox to whatever execrable English version they're offering round his way these days

Well, that would seem to be a religious rite of passage if ever there was one! - but who knows? - perhaps he reads it in Gælic rather than English anyway...

But the Vulgate illustrates neatly what I edited into my post above - in the verse I cited, St Jerome does indeed give us an Acc. & Inf :

Venit autem Jesus in partes Cæsareæ Philippi: et interrogabat discipulos suos, dicens: Quem dicunt homines esse Filium hominis?

At illi dixerunt: Alii Joannem Baptistam, alii autem Eliam, alii vero Jeremiam, aut unum ex prophetis.

Dicit illis Jesus: Vos autem, quem me esse dicitis?

Respondens Simon Petrus dixit: Tu es Christus, Filius Dei vivi.

...which, I humbly submit, would appear to drive a coach and horses through any counter-argument.

No, I don't mean a coach and horses; I mean a TRAIN! Someone has to remember that this thread is about HS2!...

[vinteuil]

I doubt if scotty would have any truck with the KJV - he will pass straight from the Vulgate through Douai and Knox to whatever execrable English version they're offering round his way these days.

...well, the New Jerusalem Bible* offers :

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi he put this question to his disciples, 'Who do people say the Son of man is?' - And they said, 'Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' - 'But you,' he said, 'who do you say I am?' - Then Simon Peter spoke up and said, ' You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

* Nihil Obstat John Deehan MA, STB, LSS ; Imprimatur + Cardinal George Basil Hume OSB Archbishop of Westminster

[ahinton]

...well, the New Jerusalem Bible* offers :

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi

It doesn't say that he made the journey by TRAIN, though, does it?! (and, as far as I am aware, the proposed HS2 Phase 13 doesn't yet extend to that area which, given the various political turmoils in the region, is perhaps less than surprising).

[Serial_Apologist]

It doesn't say that he made the journey by TRAIN, though, does it?! (and, as far as I am aware, the proposed HS2 Phase 13 doesn't yet extend to that area which, given the various political turmoils in the region, is perhaps less than surprising).

On a donkey, maybe - so could be the Circle Line!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I thought you might think that.


I doubt if scotty would have any truck with the KJV - he will pass straight from the Vulgate through Douai and Knox to whatever execrable English version they're offering round his way these days.

Have we entered a parallel universe? Has the English expert, who has apparently advocated an "anything goes" attitude for the masses, had a visitation on the road to Damascus?

[ahinton]

Have we entered a parallel universe? Has the English expert, who has apparently advocated an "anything goes" attitude for the masses, had a visitation on the road to Damascus?

Damascus? Wrong thread, I fear!...

[jean]

Have we entered a parallel universe? Has the English expert, who has apparently advocated an "anything goes" attitude for the masses, had a visitation on the road to Damascus?

You misunderstansd me - I love the language of the KJV, but I am not foolish enough to think it's the only proper way of expressing oneself.

[eighthobstruction]

A joke on TV last night was " for £60 billion you could flatten Birmingham and rebuild closer to London....thus shortening journey time..."....

[teamsaint]

A joke on TV last night was " for £60 billion you could flatten Birmingham and rebuild closer to London....thus shortening journey time..."....

well they moved bits of London out to Andover, basingstoke, Crawley etc, so seems sensible......

[Flosshilde]

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi he put this question to his disciples, 'Who do people say the Son of man is?'

Shouldn't it be "'Who do people say is the Son of man?"

'But you,' he said, 'who do you say I am?' - Then Simon Peter spoke up and said, ' You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

They'd pretty much have to say that, wouldn't they. Otherwise why are they following him?

[An_Inspector_Calls]

No.

The (grammatical) object of an active verb becomes the (grammatical) subject when you recast the sentence as passive.

Thus

Whom should we believe? and Who should be believed? are both correct.

The hypercorrection we saw in the original But whom do you think should be believed? arises probably because the writer thinks whom is the object of think.

But you are in good company - the authors of the KJV wrote (Matthew 16, 13): Whom doe men say, that I, the sonne of man, am?

(And people may have dim memories of Latin Accusative and Infinitive. That's not so common in English unless you're John Milton, and even Milton couldn't do it with all verbs of saying, thinking, feeling -but it would give Whom do you believe yourself to be? as against Who do you think you are?)


.

I am reminded of the charms of C++

[scottycelt]

I thought you might think that.


I doubt if scotty would have any truck with the KJV - he will pass straight from the Vulgate through Douai and Knox to whatever execrable English version they're offering round his way these days.

Nah... Bibles are for Evangelical Protestants & Forum Atheists.

Please ignore my previous non-participation and carry on discussing HS2 ...

[ahinton]

Nah... Bibles are for Evangelical Protestants & Forum Atheists.

Please ignore my previous non-participation and carry on discussing HS2 ...

Some of us will surely try as hard as we can, scotty; it is the thread topic, after all...