HS2....who/what should we believe?....

[teamsaint]

Since the franchisee over-bid in order to secure the franchise, and the Treasury (of course) accepted the lowest bid, you can see that failure is built into the system. That being so, it is hard to agree with the auditor's conclusion.

There is more public money going into the privatised railways now than was ever the case when they were nationalised. If a fraction of the subsidy the private companies now get had been spent in the last days of BR, the sandwiches might not have been quite so mouldy (funny, that's not something I remember, although people keep telling me about it.)

And in spite of all the subsidy, ticket prices are at ludicrous levels.

Jean, almost all of what you have said on this thread is great good sense.
However, it would surely be fair to say that though many ticket prices are at ludicrous levels, (and that other good value tickets are under thread), there are despite everything some excellent bargains.
The ticketing system is utter madness, incomprehensible, and designed apparently to make life as difficult and expensive as possible.

[jean]

Yes, there are a few good bargains - but only on certain routes, and only if you book weeks in advance, on specific trains.

[teamsaint]

Yes, there are a few good bargains - but only on certain routes, and only if you book weeks in advance, on specific trains.

Fair comment.
Don't want to divert the thread.
perhaps a " How to get a cheap Train fare" thread would be handy !!

(I can get from Basingstoke to Waterloo return for £14 of an evening , walk on fare with Network Railcard, which seems ok to me).

[ahinton]

And that's a good thing?

I used to be very enthusiastic about the TGV when I was travelling long distances in France. I've only recently become aware of how poor local transport in France is, and I understand the bitter opposition to the new TGV line.

Those that make the decisions may have cast it aside - the people protesting certainly haven't.

(I realise that this has nothing to do with the economics of the thing. Obviously a state-run railway is going to do whatever you want it to do far more cheaply and effectively than the mess we've got.)

Whilst I don't think that this is the case, the problem in France is that French people earn far less than UK people on average and so are even less able to afford to travel on French trains, LGV, TGV or otherwise; that at least in part accounts for any TGV losses. Many French people pay little or no actual tax, not least because the often extortionate social charges there are treated as tax-deductible expenses so, the less tax that they are obliged to pay, the less the Franch government can collect from them to allocate to public services including the train system. The only viable alternative might therefore appear to be to scrap public train services altogether because people can't afford to use them much. Would that be a good idea, either in France or in Britain? All that said, I still ask why it is that the French can seem to develop new train lines so much more cheaply than UK - and there's no hiding place for "subsidies" for this because the government pays for it all anyway!

[Dave2002]

Some of us 'of a certain age' well remember filthy trains and stations, numerous cancellations, late-runs and frequent strikes, mouldy cheese sandwiches, cold 'tea' and surly, boorish staff.

Not mouldy, but stale, with optional curled up edges made with BR's version of Wonderloaf!

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Since the franchisee over-bid in order to secure the franchise, and the Treasury (of course) accepted the lowest bid, you can see that failure is built into the system. That being so, it is hard to agree with the auditor's conclusion.

There is more public money going into the privatised railways now than was ever the case when they were nationalised. If a fraction of the subsidy the private companies now get had been spent in the last days of BR, the sandwiches might not have been quite so mouldy (funny, that's not something I remember, although people keep telling me about it.)

And in spite of all the subsidy, ticket prices are at ludicrous levels.

No, it's not obvious to me that failure is built into the system. In fact, the franchise system seems to be working quite well.

More money? In real or nominal terms?

Ticket prices are too high. They're also too high in other countries where the systems are nationalised.

The idea that we go back to a nationalised system does not seem attractive in that the track record of all governments operating companies always seem to fail.

[jean]

The only viable alternative might therefore appear to be to scrap public train services altogether because people can't afford to use them much.

We are not talking here about people who can't afford to go by train - we are talking about people who are afraid of losing their train service altogether.

That's the situation in the Limousin, in the small towns which the TGV won't serve.

[jean]

No, it's not obvious to me that failure is built into the system. In fact, the franchise system seems to be working quite well.

What? The failure of the franchisee on the East Coast Main Line, which had to be taken into public ownership?

The farce of the scrapped West Coast Main Line franchise, which went back to the drawing board at a cost of £40m in compensation?

Ticket prices are too high. They're also too high in other countries where the systems are nationalised.

Walk-on fares in Italy, France, even Germany, are not nearly as high as ours. And last time I looked, in Germany the Bahncard, which gives a 50% discount, was available to everyone.

...the track record of all governments operating companies always seem to fail.

Can you think of any?

.

[Richard Barrett]

And last time I looked, in Germany the Bahncard, which gives a 50% discount, was available to everyone.

Fares in Germany are indeed a lot lower than in the UK, and there are three kinds of Bahncard which give 25%, 50% and (at enormous cost!*) 100% discount. The system used to involve calculating fares simply on a per-km basis - nowadays there are different fares at different times of day, on different trains and depending on how far in advance you book them, although it doesn't (yet?) approach the byzantine complexity of the UK system.

* just checked - if you pay for it all at once it costs just over 4000 euros per year...

Another system I use a lot and quite like is that in the Netherlands, where they have an Oyster-type card which can be used not only on local public transport throughout the country, but also on mainline trains. That's such an obvious thing to do I wonder it isn't taken up elsewhere. (Although admittedly it's a small country.)

[ahinton]

We are not talking here about people who can't afford to go by train - we are talking about people who are afraid of losing their train service altogether.

That's the situation in the Limousin, in the small towns which the TGV won't serve.

Fair comment insofar as it goes - but what's different between that and the Beeching axe that fell in Britain many years ago other than that cuts to some services go hand in hand with implementation of others?

[Dave2002]

Whilst I don't think that this is the case, the problem in France is that French people earn far less than UK people on average and so are even less able to afford to travel on French trains, LGV, TGV or otherwise; ...

This is probably hyperbole.

According to the CIA World Factbook - https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/us.html, in 2012 France had a per capita GDP of around $36100, while the UK per capita GDP was $37500. Germany was $39700 and Sweden and Switzerland had figures of $41900 and $46200 respectively. So this indicates that earnings in France might be slightly lower than the UK, but not "far less" as claimed. The figure given for the USA is $50700.

There are perhaps problems with using such figures, as taxation and other factors may have to be taken into account, but broadly speaking I think they give as good a picture as is possible when dealing with mass data. I am surprised at the high figure for the USA when compared with Switzerland though.

[ahinton]

This is probably hyperbole.

According to the CIA World Factbook - https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/us.html, in 2012 France had a per capita GDP of around $36100, while the UK per capita GDP was $37500. Germany was $39700 and Sweden and Switzerland had figures of $41900 and $46200 respectively. So this indicates that earnings in France might be slightly lower than the UK, but not "far less" as claimed. The figure given for the USA is $50700.

There are perhaps problems with using such figures, as taxation and other factors may have to be taken into account, but broadly speaking I think they give as good a picture as is possible when dealing with mass data. I am surprised at the high figure for the USA when compared with Switzerland though.

There are far less French adults paying tax than is the case in UK, their income tax rates (which start at 5.5%) are mostly way lower than those in UK and, as I mentioned, social charges (which are also vastly higher for most French who pay them than they are for Brits who pay theis) are tax-deductible expenses (which for the most part they are not in UK) - so where's the money coming from? One has also only to examine the French train network as a whole and compare it to that in Britain to see that Britain has vastly more train services and an immensely more complex set of timetables as well as far structure, the network timetable for Great Britain as a whole extending to some 3,500 pages which would be absurd in France; from this it is clear that the French do not travel by train anything like as often or between as many places as the Brits do.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

What? The failure of the franchisee on the East Coast Main Line, which had to be taken into public ownership?

The farce of the scrapped West Coast Main Line franchise, which went back to the drawing board at a cost of £40m in compensation?

The East Coast franchise failed whilst in operation (the only time that's happened - the exception to the rule) at no cost to the public.

The West Coast franchise 'procurement' was a failure, but if anything, that only goes to illustrate not the failure of the franchise bidding process (which was not handled correctly) but the incompetence of government in handling big business.

Your examples of fares and discount cards are somewhat irrelevant to the franchise argument. They apply to whatever system you create. Can you quantify your statement 'not nearly as high' in other countries? My recollection of pre-booking a German train journey was that the fares were similar to the UK's.

Edit: just compared two journeys of 180 miles, one in Germany (E69), UK (£57). Both travelling tomorrow, one way, one adult, no concessions.

[Dave2002]

There are far less French adults paying tax than is the case in UK, their income tax rates (which start at 5.5%) are mostly way lower than those in UK and, as I mentioned, social charges (which are also vastly higher for most French who pay them than they are for Brits who pay theis) are tax-deductible expenses (which for the most part they are not in UK) - so where's the money coming from? One has also only to examine the French train network as a whole and compare it to that in Britain to see that Britain has vastly more train services and an immensely more complex set of timetables as well as far structure, the network timetable for Great Britain as a whole extending to some 3,500 pages which would be absurd in France; from this it is clear that the French do not travel by train anything like as often or between as many places as the Brits do.

Even in the UK, IIRC, over 90% of all significant journeys are made by road - according to Edmund King. However that shouldn't necessarily mean that the "small" (relatively) number of journeys made by rail should be ignored or the means to make them abandoned.

[jean]

The franchise system is about as bad a way of running a railway as could be devised.

Edit: just compared two journeys of 180 miles, one in Germany (E69), UK (£57). Both travelling tomorrow, one way, one adult, no concessions.

I don't know what journeys these were, but I'd be surprised if the British fare you quote included peak time travel, and I'd be surprised if the German one didn't.

Besides, when discussing German rail fares, you have to take into account the discounts available (about which Richard has more up-to-date information than I do) - to qualify for these, you don't have to be either very old or very young, as you do here