Unreasonable attacks

[french frank]

That's not the gist of the Independent story you quote which indicates that the teaching profession is not attracting physics or maths graduates into the profession.

I did say "offering inducements to persuade the maths graduates to go in for teaching"; from which I would conclude that they weren't getting them at present; otherwise why offer inducements?

Your second quote was also covered: 'they're 'struggling' in the first place to get school students to choose maths and physics at 6th form level and university' - so one presumes that the students aren't doing so at the moment - as the story you quote confirms.

I'm not sure how you conclude that the problem is other than a shortage of qualified graduates. That that has a knock-on effect on the standard of teaching is no fault of the teachers themselves; nor do I understand your attempt to attach blame to a teaching profession that is 'a major reason for the present poor state of education in this country' other than that you, for reasons unknown, have a low opinion of teachers.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well that's no surprise since they're a major reason for the present poor state of education in this country. Now they're objecting to performance assessment; that's extraordinary!

Not at all - the same teacher would get better results (and therefore be paid more) if s/he taught in a public school.

And isn't it pathetic that mandating mathematics ability to a higher standard means that the teaching profession will struggle to source competent mathematics teachers? A circular demonstration of their incompetence in the first place.

So you agree with Gove OK-ing non-qualified teachers teaching in the new, "free schools", then?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

And simply repeating the description of Gove as a nutter or the like does not convince anyone of your judgement in the matter.

Fair comment, but there is so much evidence to question his competence to do the job to which he has been allocated.

[jean]

...the same teacher would get better results (and therefore be paid more) if s/he taught in a public school.

Every teacher knows this (except possibly the ones who've only ever taught in public schools).

Few non-teachers do, unfortunately - and that (most dangerously) includes Gove himself.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Perhaps Gove isn't a fool at all. Perhaps it's those who believe what he says who are the problem.

[amateur51]

Fair comment, but there is so much evidence to question his competence to do the job to which he has been allocated.

Whenever his name comes up I take a large breath and exhale slowly while saying 'he's only a journalist, he's only a journalist'

He's never had a proper job.

[teamsaint]

Its a bit of a myth , AFAIK, that public school teachers usually earn more than their state counterparts.

[jean]

Its a bit of a myth , AFAIK, that public school teachers usually earn more than their state counterparts.

I think the point is that under Gove's proposed payment-by-results scheme they would be paid more.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Your second quote was also covered: 'they're 'struggling' in the first place to get school students to choose maths and physics at 6th form level and university' - so one presumes that the students aren't doing so at the moment - as the story you quote confirms.

I'm not sure how you conclude that the problem is other than a shortage of qualified graduates. That that has a knock-on effect on the standard of teaching is no fault of the teachers themselves; nor do I understand your attempt to attach blame to a teaching profession that is 'a major reason for the present poor state of education in this country' other than that you, for reasons unknown, have a low opinion of teachers.

I can't find your first para. quotation in either of our Independent references.

And you have ignored the quotation I had wherein: "Leading scientists agree that making maths compulsory between 16 and 18 would help to compensate for the poor maths teaching in primary and secondary state schools."

This may have been caused by several factors but would include the poor quality of teaching because schools struggled to recruit science graduates from a diminishing pool of skilled people. Scrapping O levels meant the A level had to be dumbed down and before long students were starting university courses unable to handle their first year science curriculum. The result was four year university science and engineering courses glossed over by calling them masters degrees, byt really, the first year was mainly a catch-up; students have wasted a year of their lives.

[teamsaint]

I think the point is that under Gove's proposed payment-by-results scheme they would be paid more.

Oh was it. Sorry.

This subject is so dispiriting that maybe I lose concentration !!

Wouldn't the world be great if kids went to school every day, and were inspired and enriched by their days activities.

Teachers do their best usually. But they are playing the wrong game.

(2 decades of literacy hour from age 4 to 11, 5 years of compulsory English at secondary school, and just look at the results, for example. It is tragic. Things are so badly wrong).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I can't find your first para. quotation in either of our Independent references.

And you have ignored the quotation I had wherein: "Leading scientists agree that making maths compulsory between 16 and 18 would help to compensate for the poor maths teaching in primary and secondary state schools."

This may have been caused by several factors but would include the poor quality of teaching because schools struggled to recruit science graduates from a diminishing pool of skilled people. Scrapping O levels meant the A level had to be dumbed down and before long students were starting university courses unable to handle their first year science curriculum. The result was four year university science and engineering courses glossed over by calling them masters degrees, byt really, the first year was mainly a catch-up; students have wasted a year of their lives.

You appear to be suggesting that the teachers are somehow to blame for the demise of O-levels. It was in fact the brainchild of a Tory education secretary.

[scottycelt]

Whenever his name comes up I take a large breath and exhale slowly while saying 'he's only a journalist, he's only a journalist'

He's never had a proper job.

Just think, amsey, where on earth would you and others here be without all those helpful links to Guardian articles supplied by so many lowdown journalists doing their improper jobs ... ?

[MrGongGong]

You appear to be suggesting that the teachers are somehow to blame for the demise of O-levels. It was in fact the brainchild of a Tory education secretary.

The demise of O-levels is not something to necessarily regret. There are things wrong with GCSE music (for example) BUT going back to O-level musicology would be a big mistake...... IMV

[french frank]

I can't find your first para. quotation in either of our Independent references.

Er, the quotes were to my post (#57), to point out to you that I had covered them. I did say, "I did say" before I quoted myself.

The actual quotes are: "encourage potential teachers to study the necessary subjects [i.e. Maths and Physics] in sixth form and at university." The article also said: "Yet new school-based training programmes such as School Direct have struggled to meet future demand for maths and science teachers, despite high numbers of applications to teach other subjects."

The bit you quote didn't seem to support your contention ( #51) re teachers that "they're a major reason for the present poor state of education in this country".

You then added: "And isn't it pathetic that mandating mathematics ability to a higher standard means that the teaching profession will struggle to source competent mathematics teachers?" Yes, it is pathetic, but that doesn't indicate that the root of the problem is the teachers themselves, as you imply.

[Beef Oven!]

The late Sir Charles maybe, or the compiler of the estimable 'Dictionary of Music & Musicians'?

Hehe! Well spotted, go to the top of the class!