Gay interest: Discussion v campaigning

[scottycelt]

Has there been a referendum then, scotty?

How can you possibly know that the huge majority etc etc.?

a) No but there has been a recent opinion poll with a staggering 86% of Russian people questioned supporting the new laws. Of course it could be wrong. Still virtually 9 out of 10 is a pretty impressive score in any poll and I'm sure ahinton and yourself would be treating it as the gospel truth (oops) if public opinion was the other way around. Now be honest, you would, wouldn't you, amsey?

b) How can I possibly know?

It's easy, amsey ... Google is a truly marvellous facility for gleaning relevant information on just about every subject, you know.

[scottycelt]

Steady now, ff that really is provocative in scottyWorld.

No, just plain wrong, amsey.

[scottycelt]

I think that the citizens of Belfast would find this hard to take scotty and remind me, how much did the citizens of UK have to spend on security for the CEO of Catholicism when he (Ratzinger as was) paid a lengthy visit to these shores?

I fail to see the relevance of Belfast when it comes to hiding away in shame, amsey ... it's a truly marvellous city and all its citizens should be justly proud.

If you are referring to Pope Benedict, which I strongly suspect you are, he was on a State Visit and the citizens of the UK have to stump up for security on each of these occasions.

It's really that simple, amsey, and the cost of security would only be of some irritation to a citizen of the UK who bore a personal grudge against the VIP invited and warmly welcomed to these shores by Her Majesty and millions of the delighted faithful.

[Richard Barrett]

If the huge majority of Russian people find the promotion of homosexuality unacceptable that is their 'human right'

I wonder however how many could articulate even as well as you can (ie. not at all, as Jean has established) what "promotion" means in this context. As for their "human right" to find this undefinable thing unacceptable: no, that's a misunderstanding of the concept of human rights, which are generally conceived (except perhaps on your distant planet) as universal and egalitarian (from the preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world) - that is to say, it is not a human right to trample on the rights of others.

As you say,

Hope that now makes some sense to you.

[Mr Pee]

I see amateur's back and is apparently attempting to make up for all the posts he hasn't made over the last few days by saturation bombing this thread.

He's apparently never heard the phrase "Quality, not quantity....."

[Zucchini]

I see amateur's back and is apparently attempting to make up for all the posts he hasn't made over the last few days by saturation bombing this thread.

...at least this is a kindergarten free zone and we're spared his roses, crackers, yellow blobs, birds, beer mugs and anything daft he can find

[scottycelt]

I wonder however how many could articulate even as well as you can (ie. not at all, as Jean has established) what "promotion" means in this context. As for their "human right" to find this undefinable thing unacceptable: no, that's a misunderstanding of the concept of human rights, which are generally conceived (except perhaps on your distant planet) as universal and egalitarian (from the preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world) - that is to say, it is not a human right to trample on the rights of others.

As you say,

You failed to notice that I put 'human right' in inverted commas. The point of that was to attempt to illustrate that one person's idea of a 'human right' is not necessarily another's. The huge majority of Russians (and no doubt billions of the rest of humanity) would not agree with you (and Jean) that the promotion of homosexuality to minors is a 'human right'. Your idea of a 'human right' might seem extremely alien to them. And they have the basic and genuine human right of belief which you seem to so contemptuously dismiss. And so much for 'the people' whose rights you are always usually at great pains to promote on this forum?

You either agree with the will of 'the people' or you don't. Some of us in the UK will have to come to terms with 'gay marriage' as the majority of people appear quite relaxed about it (according to polls). The majority view will win the day. The minority has no right to impose its will on the majority however much the minority might despair over the majority view.

It's also quite clear that, in your case, the majority view is of little or no importance and 'the people' can go hang if their idea of morality doesn't coincide with your own.

[Richard Barrett]

You failed to notice that I put 'human right' in inverted commas. The point of that was to attempt to illustrate that one person's idea of a 'human right' is not necessarily another's.

Really? Well, my idea of a "human right" is as defined by the "Universal [note the wording: not "universal apart from Scottycelt and Russians"] Declaration of Human Rights", adopted by the UN in 1948 and enshrined in international law in 1976, which was indeed intended explicitly to establish the definition of "human rights" as that phrase appears in the UN Charter which is binding on all member nations. It couldn't be much more clear.

[Beef Oven!]

I put 'human right' in inverted commas. The point of that was to attempt to illustrate that one person's idea of a 'human right' is not necessarily another's.

Interesting point Scotty, and I feel it's relevant.

There's no consensus on what 'human rights' are (except perhaps in the administrative/UN field). Marx and Nietzsche weren't keen on them, and contemporary scholars continue to discuss universality and the subjective nature of many of the developments in human rights thinking over the last 50 years.

It's not easy, and it's a bit too much for my little brain!!!

[jean]

...The huge majority of Russians (and no doubt billions of the rest of humanity) would not agree with you (and Jean) that the promotion of homosexuality to minors is a 'human right'...

Ah, that word again - promotion!

I spent some weeks trying to elicit from you what you thought it might actually involve, and my patience was rewarded - the other day I finally got an answer.

It appears that the promotion of homosexuality to minors means this:

...telling kids that homosexuality should be on an equal social par with heterosexuality...

And I am not convinced that doing that would infringe anyone's human rights - not even the minors'.

[Serial_Apologist]

My favourite badge, which I bought during the Thatcherite 80s, has been brought back into the glare of daily wear again recently ... "Haemophiliiacs Against The Cuts!" it says.

One of my favourites from that time was "Red Scare". I still have a bagful of 1970s and '80s political badges.

[amateur51]

a) No but there has been a recent opinion poll with a staggering 86% of Russian people questioned supporting the new laws. Of course it could be wrong. Still virtually 9 out of 10 is a pretty impressive score in any poll and I'm sure ahinton and yourself would be treating it as the gospel truth (oops) if public opinion was the other way around. Now be honest, you would, wouldn't you, amsey?

b) How can I possibly know?

It's easy, amsey ... Google is a truly marvellous facility for gleaning relevant information on just about every subject, you know.

Oh dear scotty, how many times must I tell you about quoting from surveys without knowing a) the size of the sample and the sampling methods; and b) who paid for the survey?

I appreciate that you like to take things written in books as gospel (oops!) but you really do need to be more careful

[scottycelt]

Ah, that word again - promotion!

I spent some weeks trying to elicit from you what you thought it might actually involve, and my patience was rewarded - the other day I finally got an answer.

It appears that the promotion of homosexuality to minors means this:


And I am not convinced that doing that would infringe anyone's human rights - not even the minors'.

Well you'd better tell Mr Barrett as he says you say you never got an answer!! ... okay, it took you a long time to to finally accept that you got one (and at least one other which you simply dismissed!) but we've made some progress in that direction.

At least now we might have no more silly nonsense about the non-availability of answers. As for being unconvinced about the practicality of the new Russian laws you are on much stronger ground and only time will tell whether you are right or wrong.

However, all this is pretty much irrelevant ... it's still up to the Russians to frame their own laws, isn't it?

[amateur51]

I fail to see the relevance of Belfast when it comes to hiding away in shame, amsey ... it's a truly marvellous city and all its citizens should be justly proud.

If you are referring to Pope Benedict, which I strongly suspect you are, he was on a State Visit and the citizens of the UK have to stump up for security on each of these occasions.

It's really that simple, amsey, and the cost of security would only be of some irritation to a citizen of the UK who bore a personal grudge against the VIP invited and warmly welcomed to these shores by Her Majesty and millions of the delighted faithful.

You were referring to Catholic Pride taking to the streets of Belfast which event can often cause riotous behaviour on the part of certain other denizens of Belfast.

The state to which you refer is the result of some dodgy dealings between Pope Kevin or whomever and Benito Mussolini during treacherous times and really its status is up for a review by this.

You don't seem to have a figure as to the amount, surely it must be available on your second favourite source of info, to wit google.

[amateur51]

I see amateur's back and is apparently attempting to make up for all the posts he hasn't made over the last few days by saturation bombing this thread.

He's apparently never heard the phrase "Quality, not quantity....."

Do you ever post about anything other than nubile musicians, Formula 1, Sky TV and homosexuality, Mr Pee?