Gay interest: Discussion v campaigning

[Pabmusic]

Judging by the millions of dead over the last few centuries, religion doesn't seem to be doing much of a job.

I'm with you, Ferret. However, I understand FF's point. The truth is that most religious (Christian) people in Britain would rightly regard themselves as good people. In fact there's research suggesting that (in the UK at least) Christianity is equated with 'goodness' to the extent that many people regard themselves as Christian because they see themselves as basically 'good' - not because they agree with the tenets of Christianity. With other religions (certainly Judaism, Islam and Hinduism) the tenets are more important.

[jean]

...many people regard themselves as Christian because they see themselves as basically 'good' - not because they agree with the tenets of Christianity...

I don't think those people really count as Christians, though.

Christians know that none is good, save one, that is, God, and that if they were good, they wouldn't need redemption.

[scottycelt]

The Jesuits did their work well!

But I don't think it's quite correct to say


What are they doing here?

http://www.oxfordoratory.org.uk/imag...1370250215.jpg

That's a religious procession. Hardly the same. Even the Church of England can descend to such behaviour.

A bit like saying a Church funeral procession is similar a CND march. <whistle>

[jean]

That's a religious procession. Hardly the same. Even the Church of England can descend to such behaviour.

Only the very High Anglicans ones do Corpus Christi - but the motivation is the same

Of course it's pride. It's Look at us, this is what we believe, and we're not ashamed of it.

And both funeral processions and CND marches are quite different, both from this, and from each other.

[scottycelt]

I don't think those people really count as Christians, though.

Christians know that none is good, save one, that is, God, and that if they were good, they wouldn't need redemption.

Quite. No proper Christian believes he/she is intrinsically 'good' That's usually the stuff of secular liberals.

Mind you, I've not yet seen a Christian carrying a banner boasting 'PROUD TO BE BAD' ...

[scottycelt]

Of course it's pride. It's Look at us, this is what we believe, and we're not ashamed of it.

No it's not.

It's look at Him ... not us.

Quite different!

[Pabmusic]

I don't think those people really count as Christians, though.

Christians know that none is good, save one, that is, God, and that if they were good, they wouldn't need redemption.

Not quite my point, which is that people regard themselves as Christians for reasons not directly concerning Christianity. Whether they are actually 'Christians' - well there are plenty who don't accept the Catholic Church as 'proper' Christians. This sort of thing is the reason why there are 10,000 (or is it 20,000?) Christian sects - all of them right.

[jean]

Not quite my point, which is that people regard themselves as Christians for reasons not directly concerning Christianity.

Yes, I know that's your point - but you're talking about the cultural Christians , who don't count.

However many thousands of Christian sects there are, I doubt if you'll find one that encourages its adherents to claim to be good.

Even the Calvinist elect have to work at it, I believe.

[jean]

No it's not.

It's look at Him ... not us.

Quite different!

My soule shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall heare thereof, and be glad.

It's a pity we can't post images here.

But just google Proud to be Catholic - you'll be amazed!

[Pabmusic]

...I doubt if you'll find one that encourages its adherents to claim to be good.

Even the Calvinist elect have to work at it, I believe.

Oh yes, I quite agree.

[scottycelt]

My soule shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall heare thereof, and be glad.

It's a pity we can't post images here.

But just google Proud to be Catholic - you'll be amazed!

I doubt I'd be particularly amazed, jean ...

I know some very silly badges do exist which are very likely simply a knee-jerk reaction to things like Gay Pride, though I've never actually seen any on the streets.

There really is nowt as queer as folk!

[jean]

...very likely simply a knee-jerk reaction to things like Gay Pride...

Really, scotty! What a feeble attempt to avoid responsibility!

[french frank]

Judging by the millions of dead over the last few centuries, religion doesn't seem to be doing much of a job.

I said its purpose not its achievement. There have been 'millions of dead' in the last few centuries, caused by human beings; I don't think millions have been killed 'in the last few centuries' because of the teachings of 'religion' in general - or even what is generally accepted as the teaching of any religion. On the other hand, blanket intolerance of 'religion' causes people to overlook such good as is done in the name of religion. My view as an unaligned agnostic.

[scottycelt]

That seems to be as glaring example as I've ever seen of totally sidestepping the question !

Sorry Cal, I thought I had answered the question from Barbirollians in my own way ... but here's a rather more direct one for you!

Of course no Catholic (and one would hope the huge majority of secular liberals) would take a proposed return to papist-persecution days in the UK 'quietly'. Just as I would expect that no Russian gay (and I would hope every Catholic) would support a return to the pre-1993 sex laws in Russia, when the practice of homosexuality was illegal and gays imprisoned.

Fortunately, I'm not aware that is what either the UK or Russian governments are currently proposing? It's simply that I fail to see much difference between sudden restrictions on Catholic belief and practice regarding adoption agencies in the UK and new curbs on gay promotion in Russia!

If that's what the majority in both countries really wish then it's somewhat difficult to deny however wrong and damaging we personally feel these changes might be.

[french frank]

It's simply that I fail to see much difference between sudden restrictions on Catholic belief and practice regarding adoption agencies in the UK and new curbs on gay promotion in Russia!

One is opening out to gays and the other is closing off?

You see this as a 'restriction' on Catholic belief, others see it a development - 'Eppur si muove' as Galileo is said to have murmured while facing the Catholic Inquisition.