Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[Flosshilde]

I've just switched on Newsnight to see Rupert Everett talking about being gay in Russia.

One thing he said I hadn't thought of - that the culture of informing on your neighbours is still very much alive and well, so that if you wanted to keep your head down and not attract attention, you might not find it easy to manage.

I think that is a rather important point, especially in relation to the 'you won't get into trouble if you don't do anything wrong' approach. If it's possible your neighbours - or your family - will inform on you then you can't avoid 'doing something wrong'. I think that anyone who can remember what it was like being gay in the fifties or before would understand the atmosphere of fear & uncertainty, and the subterfuge people had to resort to to avoid being discovered.

[Ferretfancy]

I think that is a rather important point, especially in relation to the 'you won't get into trouble if you don't do anything wrong' approach. If it's possible your neighbours - or your family - will inform on you then you can't avoid 'doing something wrong'. I think that anyone who can remember what it was like being gay in the fifties or before would understand the atmosphere of fear & uncertainty, and the subterfuge people had to resort to to avoid being discovered.

I was in my teens but already self aware when the Lord Montagu case was in the headlines, and I remember wondering how the state could act so cruelly. Growing up gay in the late fifties and early sixties i soon learned. What is often forgotten was the terrible damage that gay secrecy did in making it so difficult to have meaningful relationships, both with other gay people and straight friends and family. The result was that a hectic under cover promiscuity was what so many gay people settled for. I still occasionally meet men of my generation who are bitter and alone deeply suspicious of the world and despising authority. It will be a few years yet before the legacy of the 1950s has gone.

[Serial_Apologist]

I was in my teens but already self aware when the Lord Montagu case was in the headlines, and I remember wondering how the state could act so cruelly. Growing up gay in the late fifties and early sixties i soon learned. What is often forgotten was the terrible damage that gay secrecy did in making it so difficult to have meaningful relationships, both with other gay people and straight friends and family. The result was that a hectic under cover promiscuity was what so many gay people settled for. I still occasionally meet men of my generation who are bitter and alone deeply suspicious of the world and despising authority. It will be a few years yet before the legacy of the 1950s has gone.

This episode is from "Victim" - a film that gave those of us who had probably not given much thought to the subject at the time an awful lot to think about. I imagine it conveys the atmosphere you describe pretty well, remembering as I do the West End in the 1960s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXVDd43l_o4

[amateur51]

This episode is from "Victim" - a film that gave those of us who had probably not given much thought to the subject at the time an awful lot to think about. I imagine it conveys the atmosphere you describe pretty well, remembering as I do the West End in the 1960s:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXVDd43l_o4

And of course, although the world is a much less hostile, even more positive place than it was there are plenty of lesbians and gay men among us who have never fully recovered from such a nightmare period, some of whom will go their graves bearing the emotional scars inflicted long ago.

[Flosshilde]

And of course, although the world is a much less hostile, even more positive place than it was

Up to a point. As Russia shows there is still plenty of hostility, both from the general population (encouraged and protected by those who should be preventing it) and from the state, even in those places that would like to consider themselves part of 'the West'.

[ahinton]

Up to a point. As Russia shows there is still plenty of hostility, both from the general population (encouraged and protected by those who should be preventing it) and from the state, even in those places that would like to consider themselves part of 'the West'.

...which, of course, they never will with any credibility while they continue to adopt such policies as they do. Yes, there is indeed such localised hostility encouraged at least in part by government but, again, as with the sidelining of women there and elsewhere, it smacks of illogicality as well as inhumanity and is, of course, deep-seated on account of various prejudices having been promoted over generations; where is the logical justification for treating as second-class citizens those with IQs below a particular figure, or those with ginger hair, or those whose height exceeds 1.9m, or those over 80, or composers, or LGBTs or - er - women?

[ahinton]

And of course, although the world is a much less hostile, even more positive place than it was there are plenty of lesbians and gay men among us who have never fully recovered from such a nightmare period, some of whom will go their graves bearing the emotional scars inflicted long ago.

That's very true, much the same has, indeed, been noted in various quarters of late in the context of abuse of one kind and another against minors in that some of them may never fully recover from their experiences irrespective of the amount and quality of help that they may subsequently receive.

[amateur51]

That's very true, much the same has, indeed, been noted in various quarters of late in the context of abuse of one kind and another against minors in that some of them may never fully recover from their experiences irrespective of the amount and quality of help that they may subsequently receive.

Good point, ahinton. However I feel that our society deals less well with emotional/psychological abuse than it does with physical abuse, the former still tending to receive the "don't live in the past" or "pull yourself together" school of response.

[amateur51]

Up to a point. As Russia shows there is still plenty of hostility, both from the general population (encouraged and protected by those who should be preventing it) and from the state, even in those places that would like to consider themselves part of 'the West'.

Russia is certainly a florid and current example, I agree.

[ahinton]

Good point, ahinton. However I feel that our society deals less well with emotional/psychological abuse than it does with physical abuse, the former still tending to receive the "don't live in the past" or "pull yourself together" school of response.

Whilst I would agree with that, it nevertheless seems clear from some recent reports that a culture of covering up instances of abuse of minors respects no such boundaries of distinction.

[amateur51]

I have found the link for you. It's here, about 23 minutes in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_11_09_2013/

My apologies for coming late to this jean - a fascinating interview between two intelligent people and Everett's insights into the situation for lesbians & gay men in Russia was interesting and very disturbing.

As S_A's link to Basil Dearden's film 'Victim' shows, 1950s and 1960s Britain was the land of the blackmailer for many gay men, and the police were well-known for their fishing expeditions based on a tip-off. Dirk Bogarde took a huge risk with his career in starring in Victim and, as it turned out, it paid off, leading to his wider career in Europe.

[aeolium]

There seems to have been quite a strong reaction to the opening of the Met season, with Eugene Onegin conducted by Gergiev and with Netrebko as Tatiana:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/24/nyregion/gay-rights-protest-greets-opening-night-at-the-met.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Private Eye's Lunchtime O'Boulez column has also reported on the disruption and comments on Gergiev's imminent visit to Kazakhstan to open a new arts centre erected by the dictator Nursultan Nazarbayez. It could be that Gergiev's LSO season at the Barbican will be a difficult one.

[aeolium]

There was an interesting Storyville on BBC4 last night on the Pussy Riot protest and trial, available on i-player:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p01hs5t8/Storyville_20132014_Pussy_Riot_A_Punk_Prayer/

It was probably a repeat, but I hadn't seen it before. What was interesting to me was the way in which in a very repressive environment for conventional opposition (political parties, journalism, the law etc), the PR used an unconventional medium - performance art - to demonstrate resistance and in so doing gained much more international attention than even the brave activities of opposition politicians or journalists like Anna Politkovskaya.

[amateur51]

The opening of night of Valery Gergiev’s new London Symphony Orchestra concert season at the Barbican in London was disrupted last night (31 October) by a protest against Gergiev’s support for Russian President, Vladimir Putin.

Shortly after the orchestra assembled on the stage, and before Gergiev made his entrance, human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell strode on to the stage, dressed in a tuxedo, which led some in the audience to initially assume he was a Barbican spokesperson making an official announcement.

Mr Tatchell told the concert audience:

“Valery Gergiev is a friend, ally and supporter of the Russian tyrant Vladimir Putin, whose regime is arresting peaceful protesters and opposition leaders. Gergiev defends the new homophobic law that persecutes gay Russians. He sided with Putin against Pussy Riot. I ask you to oppose tyranny and show your support for the Russian people.”

He was manhandled off the stage by security staff and then voluntarily left the concert hall to some slow hand claps but mostly to applause.

After he exited the concert hall, Mr Tatchell, Director of the human rights advocacy organisation, the Peter Tatchell Foundation, added:

“Gergiev’s loyalty to Putin has been rewarded with personal honours and massive state grants for his pet projects. Gergiev is a great conductor but he colludes with a tyrant and shows little concern for freedom and equality.

“I may have annoyed some concert-goers but others seemed supportive. It was all over in two minutes. Gergiev’s performance was only briefly delayed. I never intended to disrupt the concert; only to make a short, symbolic statement,” he said.

Gergiev's name appears on a list of celebrity supporters of Putin, according to the Moscow Times:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/no-political-harmony-among-cultural-elite/453318.html

In the run up to the last Russian elections, he publicly stated that he was voting for Putin:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2012/03/gergiev-endorses-putin.html

His support for the repressive Putin regime was confirmed by Private Eye. Number 1350, 4-17 October 2013

[jean]

Very interesting!

That's a better and more dignified way of doing it than trying to disrupt the whole concert, I think.