Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[jean]

What is so difficult about understanding the banning of homosexual literature in schools and libraries in Russia ?

Good, we're getting on to something a little more specific than your previous attempts!

Not specific enough, though.

Could you give an example of the homosexual literature that might be banned under this or similar legislation?

Shakespeare's Sonnets, perhaps? The second book of Samuel?

[jean]

As I posted earlier there are bound to be 'grey areas' which will inevitably crop up. That applies to many rules and regulations and does not mean the huge majority of Russians are so stupid they cannot understand the new laws as you appeared to suggest?

The huge majority of Russians haven't stopped to think about the details, any more than people here who thought (because they hadn't thought about it at all, really) that Section 28 was probably OK because after all nobody got prosecuted.

[amateur51]

Homosexual literature? I don't know about today's lesbian and gay children and young people but I doubt that it has changed much. For multiple generations lesbian and gay children and young people have, in the absence of positive literature/cinema images transformed the available 'heterosexual' literature to match our own experiences, desires, etc. Such an act of distortion is not ultimately healthy or desirable of course but in the repressive absence of the real thing, it can and will be done.

The Russian repressives, of whom you clearly approve scotty, are only delaying the change and they're building up a massive flood as they do so.

[ahinton]

Ahinton ... would you kindly provide a link to my alleged post where I supposedly said 'all' Russians supported the new laws?

It would be most helpful as you keep repeating that I did when I have absolutely no recollection of ever having done so!

#154: "a) Alien to the Russian people ... or at least the overwhelming majority"
#129: "So who and what should impose an alien 'gay rights' culture on the Russian people against their will, then ... a special NATO expeditionary force led by Stephen Fry?"
#112: "is it for the Russian people to decide the moral standards of their society"

I did describe your allegation as "implying" reference to the entire Russian population whereas you omit to limit your references to a specific sector of that population (apart from your concessive reference to "at least the overwhelming majority").

Will that do for the purposes of stimulating your evidently dormant recollective powers?

And, since we're both Scots, it might be as well to remind you of Flossie's #18:
"Glasgow's Lord Provost has written to her counterpart, the Mayor of Rostov-on-Don, one of Glasgow's twin cities, deploring the laws and saying that she looks forward to meeting him later this year & discussing them with him.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/l...2757n.21814650"
From this, it might be deduced that, whatever support for the proposed legislation there may allegedly be in Russia, it's far from widely endorsed in Scotland!

[amateur51]

#154: "a) Alien to the Russian people ... or at least the overwhelming majority"
#129: "So who and what should impose an alien 'gay rights' culture on the Russian people against their will, then ... a special NATO expeditionary force led by Stephen Fry?"
#112: "is it for the Russian people to decide the moral standards of their society"

I did describe your allegation as "implying" reference to the entire Russian population whereas you omit to limit your references to a specific sector of that population (apart from your concessive reference to "at least the overwhelming majority").

Will that do?

And, since we're both Scots, it might be as well to remind you of Flossie's #18:
"Glasgow's Lord Provost has written to her counterpart, the Mayor of Rostov-on-Don, one of Glasgow's twin cities, deploring the laws and saying that she looks forward to meeting him later this year & discussing them with him.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/l...2757n.21814650

From this, it might be deduced that, whatever support for the proposed legislation there may allegedly be in Russia, it's far from widely endorsed in Scotland!

:laugh: excellent stuff ahinton - clear and concise too :yikes::winkeye:

[scottycelt]

Good, we're getting on to something a little more specific than your previous attempts!

Not specific enough, though.

Could you give an example of the homosexual literature that might be banned under this or similar legislation?

Shakespeare's Sonnets, perhaps? The second book of Samuel?

Well, sorry to disappoint yet again ...

How about literature that PROMOTES homosexuality which is quite different from say a book which happens to include or is even ABOUT homosexuality. The latter, of course, is the undoubted area where 'grey areas' may well crop up!

The most obvious breach would be any literature and advertising promoting a 'Gay Pride' march, for example?

If I wore a t-shirt with the slogan 'Proud to be White' I'd probably get arrested in the UK on the grounds of race hatred. I'd undoubtedly deserve to be arrested on the grounds of stupidity alone. Yet it could easily be argued that my 'human rights' were being infringed. Fortunately, even I am not quite that stupid to give it a try.

I don't see what's so different about 'Gay Pride', 'Straight Pride', 'White Pride' or 'Black Pride' for that matter. These are all very silly things to be particularly proud about, aren't they?

Hope this helps.

[jean]

Well, sorry to disappoint yet again ...

Not disappointed at all - we're finally getting close to what I've been asking you all along.

How about literature that PROMOTES homosexuality which is quite different from say a book which happens to include or is even ABOUT homosexuality. The latter, of course, is the undoubted area where 'grey areas' may well crop up!

The most obvious breach would be any literature and advertising promoting a 'Gay Pride' march, for example?

Is that really the best you can come up with?

Advertising an event which is in itself perfectly legal certainly promotes the event. It's addressed as much to heterosexual people who want to offer support and solidarity. It's a very different thing from the dubious concept of 'promoting homosexuality', which is what you evidently can't define any more than anyone could when it was enshrined in Section 28.

And it's not really what I meant by literature.

Back to the drawing-board.

I think that if you try really hard you'll recognise that the grey areas are so huge that they fill virtually all the available space.

[ahinton]

Well, sorry to disappoint yet again ...

How about literature that PROMOTES homosexuality which is quite different from say a book which happens to include or is even ABOUT homosexuality. The latter, of course, is the undoubted area where 'grey areas' may well crop up!

The most obvious breach would be any literature and advertising promoting a 'Gay Pride' march, for example?

If I wore a t-shirt with the slogan 'Proud to be White' I'd probably get arrested in the UK on the grounds of race hatred. I'd undoubtedly deserve to be arrested on the grounds of stupidity alone. Yet it could easily be argued that my 'human rights' were being infringed. Fortunately, even I am not quite that stupid to give it a try.

I don't see what's so different about 'Gay Pride', 'Straight Pride', 'White Pride' or 'Black Pride' for that matter. These are all very silly things to be particularly proud about, aren't they?

Hope this helps.

Most of it doesn't; not much change there, then...

Has it never occurred to you (or would you prefer not to admit, even to yourself) that, had homosexuals never been persecuted nor legislated against nor otherwise mistreated on the grounds of their sexual predilection, the need for the phenomenon of "Gay Pride" as a public expression would have been greatly diminished? It is therefore not a matter of "stupidity" but one of necessity or otherwise and the widespread long and parlous history of anti-homosexual actions, views and laws surely illustrates how such a necessity has arisen; the unwelcome proposed socially regressive and antediluvian legislation in Russia inevitably restokes the furnace of "Gay Pride" as a defensive public gesture.

[amateur51]

I don't see what's so different about 'Gay Pride', 'Straight Pride', 'White Pride' or 'Black Pride' for that matter. These are all very silly things to be particularly proud about, aren't they?

Hope this helps.

Straight Pride doesn't exist, has never existed and probably never will because it doesn't need to.

Simples.

Heterosexuality was, for the time I was growing up, compulsory, no other menu. I had to watch it on film and TV, I had to read about it in the library and magazines. Worse still, anything else was always spoken of in whispered tones if at all and then it was spoken of entirely negatively. Heterosexuals have always had it easy - it's only relatively recently that the people whom the great Gore Vidal insisted on calling same-sexers have found the courage to create our own identity. That's the difference and possibly what winds you up, scotty - you opened the envelope of Life, read the contents, obeyed the instructions and carried on as a then-typical (but now a-typical) heterosexual male. I've been fortunate enough to invent myself and, if I may say so, I've done a rather good job :biggrin:

I referred to your version (and Mr Pee's) as being atypical of young straight men these days. Young people of all persuasions are growing up into incredibly flexible people when it comes to their sexuality. By this I don't mean that they want to jump into bed with anyone but rather that they're genuinely not that fussed who other people relate to. And possibly best of all, if another man tells them they're hot, they'll either be thrilled or polite - " Oh thanks mate, I'm sure you're a lovely bloke but I'm with my girl-friend (or boyfriend) ok?"

Simples.

[scottycelt]

#154: "a) Alien to the Russian people ... or at least the overwhelming majority"
#129: "So who and what should impose an alien 'gay rights' culture on the Russian people against their will, then ... a special NATO expeditionary force led by Stephen Fry?"
#112: "is it for the Russian people to decide the moral standards of their society"

I did describe your allegation as "implying" reference to the entire Russian population whereas you omit to limit your references to a specific sector of that population (apart from your concessive reference to "at least the overwhelming majority").

Will that do for the purposes of stimulating your evidently dormant recollective powers?

And, since we're both Scots, it might be as well to remind you of Flossie's #18:
"Glasgow's Lord Provost has written to her counterpart, the Mayor of Rostov-on-Don, one of Glasgow's twin cities, deploring the laws and saying that she looks forward to meeting him later this year & discussing them with him.
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/l...2757n.21814650"
From this, it might be deduced that, whatever support for the proposed legislation there may allegedly be in Russia, it's far from widely endorsed in Scotland!

Yes, but where did I ever say 'all' the Russian people as you claimed, ahinton? Absolutely nowhere! When the British people voted to remain in the old Common Market it didn't mean that they 'all' did! But you know that anyway, don't you? You really must be much more careful with your 'quotations'.

I would never expect you to acknowledge that you were mistaken but I would hope that you will now cease the practice of inaccurately quoting from the posts of other members especially when the falsehoods have been demonstrably proven to be false!

Finally, I do hope the Lord Provost of Glasgow has a nice wee chat and cup of Russian tea with her counterpart in Rostov-on-Don ... :whistle:

[ahinton]

Straight Pride doesn't exist, has never existed and probably never will because it doesn't need to.

Simples.

Heterosexuality was, for the time I was growing up, compulsory, no other menu. I had to watch it on film and TV, I had to read about it in the library and magazines. Worse still, anything else was always spoken of in whispered tones if at all and then it was spoken of entirely negatively. Heterosexuals have always had it easy - it's only relatively recently that the people whom the great Gore Vidal insisted on calling same-sexers have found the courage to create our own identity. That's the difference and possibly what winds you up, scotty - you opened the envelope of Life, read the contents, obeyed the instructions and carried on as a then-typical (but now a-typical) heterosexual male. I've been fortunate enough to invent myself and, if I may say so, I've done a rather good job :biggrin:

I referred to your version (and Mr Pee's) as being atypical of young straight men these days. Young people of all persuasions are growing up into incredibly flexible people when it comes to their sexuality. By this I don't mean that they want to jump into bed with anyone but rather that they're genuinely not that fussed who other people relate to. And possibly best of all, if another man tells them they're hot, they'll either be thrilled or polite - " Oh thanks mate, I'm sure you're a lovely bloke but I'm with my girl-friend (or boyfriend) ok?"

Simples.

Simples for most of us, for sure; less so, it would seem, however, for scotty, Mr Pee and a non-mighty handful of others who would, in common with me and many so many heterosexuals, have had every good reason to complain bitterly and vociferously had they been obliged to live under legislation, attitudes of mind and mistreatments that opposed heterosexuality.

[amateur51]

Yes, but where did I ever say 'all' the Russian people as you claimed, ahinton? Absolutely nowhere!

Wriggling again scotty. :erm: Ahinton has provided more than enough solid evidence for most reasonable observers.

[scottycelt]

Not disappointed at all - we're finally getting close to what I've been asking you all along.


Is that really the best you can come up with?

Advertising an event which is in itself perfectly legal certainly promotes the event. It's addressed as much to heterosexual people who want to offer support and solidarity. It's a very different thing from the dubious concept of 'promoting homosexuality', which is what you evidently can't define any more than anyone could when it was enshrined in Section 28.

And it's not really what I meant by literature.

Back to the drawing-board.

I think that if you try really hard you'll recognise that the grey areas are so huge that they fill virtually all the available space.

No, it appears to be you that has some difficulty in understanding the proposed laws. I don't have much of a problem in that regard though I have conceded the possible 'grey areas'.

I think the truth of the matter may be that you don't really WANT to understand the new laws because you simply hate them to death?

Fair enough.

[scottycelt]

Wriggling again scotty. :erm: Ahinton has provided more than enough solid evidence for most reasonable observers.

What a total waste of precious time this is ... :laugh:

[amateur51]

No, it appears to be you that has some difficulty in understanding the proposed laws. I don't have much of a problem in that regard though I have conceded the possible 'grey areas'.

I think the truth of the matter may be that you don't really WANT to understand the new laws because you simply hate them to death?

Fair enough.

There again, could it be that you are not able to live with deliberately vague legislation targetted at you because you've never had to, scotty?

If I may, jean and I have lived with and through Thatcher's hateful ('literally' - read Barbara Young's House of Lord's speeches in Hansard) section 28 and we understand all too well.