Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[MrGongGong]

Homosexualists do not care what they destroy, so long as they get their way and force people to view the world the way they do.

I think you see a conspiracy where none exists.
Would you say the same about the "domestic policies" of the Taliban ? or Pol Pot ? the apartheid regime in South Africa ?
I think we have a duty to speak out when people are being abused and discriminated against on grounds of sexuality, gender, race and belief.

[Beef Oven!]

I think you see a conspiracy where none exists.
Would you say the same about the "domestic policies" of the Taliban ? or Pol Pot ? the apartheid regime in South Africa ?
I think we have a duty to speak out when people are being abused and discriminated against on grounds of sexuality, gender, race and belief.

By all means speak out. I do too. But this is different. This is a political ideology that seeks marshal everyone into a political world view.

It's not a 'conspiracy' (would help if you'd define your terms, from time to time), Tatchell and other Homosexualists make no bones about it - nothing secret. The Russians are the latest to feel the benefit of rampant homosexualism.

[ahinton]

I simply do not think that it is for homosexualists to tell Putin, the Russian government and the Russian people what to think and what domestic policies they should adopt.

But they can tell them what they themselves think and that "we do things diffeently here"; no harm done by that, surely? They can tell all three that they care about and deplore the persecution of LGBT and others in Russia; no harm in that eiother, I would think.

Harassing Gergiev is totally disrespectful and will achieve nothing other than to alienate him - our loss, because I don't suppose he gives a flying fuck what the protesters think.

Gergiev at his best is a great conductor and he most certainly will care more than a flying conductor if he starts losing dates over his so far entrenched position on this.

Homosexualists do not care what they destroy, so long as they get their way and force people to view the world the way they do. This approach is very destructive and is doomed to failure, if not now, then in the long run. We will all be losers.

On what grounds and with what evidence do you claim this? We're referring in any case not merely to homosexuals but to the wider LGBT community but, more importantly, their treatment by the authorities in Russia is not so differernt in principle from the treatment of "foreign undesirables" anywhere, to the extent that it's formalised persecution of a particular group of people within the wider community.

[jean]

The Russians are the latest to feel the benefit of rampant homosexualism.

You write as if Russians and 'homosexualists' were two mutually exclusive groups.

They aren't, of course. Those who suffer most from the 'world view' prescribed by the authorities in Russia are Russian LGBT people themselves.

[Beef Oven!]

You write as if Russians and 'homosexualists' were two mutually exclusive groups.

No I don't. I am perfectly aware that in Russia there are people who are LGBT. There are also hundreds and thousands of other sub-groups too. There are Christaians, Moslems, blacks, football fans, and so on. So what?

Russian LGBT people are taking issue and protesting against what they perceive to be unfair. And so they should if that's how they feel.

But we should butt out and quit being so arrogant and self assured in our ideological and political beliefs that we can tell other nations what to do and how to think.

I think a more appropriate response would be to arrange asylum for these people, if they cannot get by with the way they want or need to live their life in Russia.

[amateur51]

Well Tatchell is an admiral politician and I respect him highly, although I don't agree with everything he says. He does normally make a lot of sense. I have read all the information, including the sub-sections of the link.

I'm afraid I have a fundamental disagreement. I simply do not think that it is for homosexualists to tell Putin, the Russian government and the Russian people what to think and what domestic policies they should adopt. The arrogance of the homosexualists comes from the fact that they constitute a very powerful lobby. Harassing Gergiev is totally disrespectful and will achieve nothing other than to alienate him - our loss, because I don't suppose he gives a flying fuck what the protesters think. Homosexualists do not care what they destroy, so long as they get their way and force people to view the world the way they do. This approach is very destructive and is doomed to failure, if not now, then in the long run. We will all be losers.

What about Russian lesbian & gay men protesting about their situation and asking for help from outside? What about Russians who are not lesbian or gay but who object?

This 'we must not criticise' stance is both nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that.

Sadly for some, lesbians and gay men have been campaigning for equality since before they were born which rather gives the lie to how powerful we are. And the only reason that change has occurred is that sufficient allies from mainstream communities have decided that these inequalities are unjust and need for change is unjustified.

It's sad to see such conservatism in educated and privileged people in this day and age.

[Beef Oven!]

What about Russian lesbian & gay men protesting about their situation and asking for help from outside?

This 'we must not criticise' stance......

Never said 'we must not criticise', if you believe it's wrong, you should. All part of the democratic process. What we mustn't do is dictate.

Asking for help from outside? Very disloyal (unless their loyalty is first and foremost to themselves, other homosexuals and other similar thinking people outside of Russia), dangerous and places this single issue above all else in Russian international relations.

Some people don't think like you do, they are heterosexual GET OVER IT!

[jean]

Some people don't think like you do, they are heterosexual GET OVER IT!

You may not have noticed this, but quite a few heterosexual people don't like seeing homosexual people being persecuted.

Fortunately.

[amateur51]

Never said 'we must not criticise', if you believe it's wrong, you should. All part of the democratic process. What we mustn't do is dictate.

Asking for help from outside? Very disloyal (unless their loyalty is first and foremost to themselves, other homosexuals and other similar thinking people outside of Russia), dangerous and places this single issue above all else in Russian international relations.

Some people don't think like you do, they are heterosexual GET OVER IT!

Oh dear, Rattled of E5!

I can't see how any of us, singly or collectly, could or have been 'dictating' to Mr Putin or the Russian people. It is not in our power to dictate.

The movement for the emancipation of the LGBTI communities has always relied on the sheer numbers of non-LGBTI allies who support the emancipation - that's how minorities get their freedom. After all, most of us have mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, brothers, sisters, grandparents etc.

[aeolium]

You may not have noticed this, but quite a few heterosexual people don't like seeing homosexual people being persecuted.

Fortunately.

Quite. Just as there are and have been white people who opposed apartheid in South Africa, Jews who oppose the settlement programme in Israel, Muslim men who oppose the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia, etc. How it is possible to think that criticism should stop at national borders after the horrors of the C20 is astonishing to me, especially when one thinks of authoritarian countries like Russia with no independent rule of law, hounding and imprisonment of opposition politicians and murder of journalists and lawyers. The toleration of minorities is, or ought to be, one of the defining qualities of a civilised country.

I hope that people continue to protest against Gergiev and boycott his concerts for as long as he publicly supports Putin's authoritarian policies.

[french frank]

Some people don't think like you do, they are heterosexual GET OVER IT!

Discrimination and inequalites are a lesser form of judicial and physical persecution. You don't have to be female to be a feminist and you don't have to be gay to support basic rights and equality for gay people. We are all people.

[amateur51]

Discrimination and inequalites are a lesser form of judicial and physical persecution. You don't have to be female to be a feminist and you don't have to be gay to support basic rights and equality for gay people. We are all people.

Cheers french frank!

Only connect!

[amateur51]

Quite. Just as there are and have been white people who opposed apartheid in South Africa, Jews who oppose the settlement programme in Israel, Muslim men who oppose the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia, etc. How it is possible to think that criticism should stop at national borders after the horrors of the C20 is astonishing to me, especially when one thinks of authoritarian countries like Russia with no independent rule of law, hounding and imprisonment of opposition politicians and murder of journalists and lawyers. The toleration of minorities is, or ought to be, one of the defining qualities of a civilised country.

I hope that people continue to protest against Gergiev and boycott his concerts for as long as he publicly supports Putin's authoritarian policies.

Great post, thanks aeolium!

[Beef Oven!]

Discrimination and inequalites are a lesser form of judicial and physical persecution. You don't have to be female to be a feminist and you don't have to be gay to support basic rights and equality for gay people. We are all people.

Of course I know all that, just as I knew that someone would apply an O'Level logic to it or a Venn diagram.

The point I am making is that of hegemony. It's a heterosexual hegemony in Russia. Same-sex marriage arises in liberal democracies is a result of the power elite's weltanschauung . Same dynamic exists the world over, but often with different outcomes.

We can't always have our own way, we must live with it!

[amateur51]

Of course I know all that, just as I knew that someone would apply an O'Level logic to it or a Venn diagram.

The point I am making is that of hegemony. It's a heterosexual hegemony in Russia. Same-sex marriage arises in liberal democracies is a result of the power elite's weltanschauung . Same dynamic exists the world over, but often with different outcomes.

We can't always have our own way, we must live with it!

What is the nature of this particular Weltanshauung, would you say? Altruism? The dawning that it [liberalised views of same-sexers] poses no threat to their hegemony; enlightened self-interest?