Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[Beef Oven!]

there I was, only a little while ago, wondering why anyone should be asking what something on a thread had to do with the price of fish and then...

A knob of butter?

[Beef Oven!]

Very pleased to see that this thread has calmed down and is now challenging Storm Weather for peacefulness

Apparently some passive-aggressive bloke had dozed off for a while.

[amateur51]

Apparently some passive-aggressive bloke had dozed off for a while.

Your self-awareness is to your credit, I must say

[Mr Pee]

Yes, but at the same time it does appear once again to have journeyed quite some distance from Musical and/or Historical Homophobia (whatever they might be), wouldn't you say?...

Once again, it falls to me to get the thread back on track.....

I have it on good authority -(from a mate down the pub who read it on Wikipedia)- that homosexualists prefer margarine to butter, although Tchaikovsky himself was the exception, preferring a sunflower spread to either of the above, usually topped with Marmite, or on special occasions, Nutella, both of which condiments were, as I am sure you will know, widely available in Russia at the time.

This information of course makes all the difference to my appreciation of his music.

[Serial_Apologist]

lets ave it large for marge.

But don't lets Stork about it.

[teamsaint]

But don't lets Stork about it.

smileything

I Echo your sentiments, S-A.

[ahinton]

Once again, it falls to me to get the thread back on track.....

I have it on good authority -(from a mate down the pub who read it on Wikipedia)- that homosexualists prefer margarine to butter, although Tchaikovsky himself was the exception, preferring a sunflower spread to either of the above, usually topped with Marmite, or on special occasions, Nutella, both of which condiments were, as I am sure you will know, widely available in Russia at the time.

This information of course makes all the difference to my appreciation of his music.

On the "strength" of the puerile remarks above, crediting yourself with responsibility for getting this thread "back on track" clearly has less credibility than even you would give to a Guardian article on anything - but let's ask you a simple question or three...

Do you believe that Tchaikovsky (or any other composer that you might care to name) wrote his music in total isolation from and disregard of the social conditions under which he and his contemporaries lived and worked and that, as a consequence, his listeners can and should accept his work as resulting purely from the exercising of all of his very considerable technical facilities for putting notes on paper and organising them well? If so, how would it be possible for anyo0ne else to feel anything about it beyond mere admiration for his technical skills? Such a view would, I imagine, have been anathema to Tchaikovsky, assuming that he could even understand it.

Questions of Tchaikovsky's sexuality in the present context are not simply about that per se but also about the social attitudes to it at the time when he was active, just as was the case with Britten, Szymanowski, Tippett and many other homosexual composers; think of Shostakovich and Roslavets, for example, neither of whom were homosexual but both of whose creative work could not have been other than profoundly affected by the sometimes very unpleasant and fear-inducing social conditions under which they had to function. Do you suppose that Elgar's activity as a composer was entirely separated in his mind from the fact that he was less of an establishment figure than were some of his lesser colleagues? (lower middle class Catholic and all that) or that his and Rachmaninov's frequent bouts of self-doubt had no impact on their work? (and, of couse, Elgar and Rachmaninov weren't homosexuals either).

Let's get the sexuality thing into some kind of realistic and credible wider perspective here; I fear that some who pour scorn on this issue at every opportunity and none - as you seem to take some immature delight in doing - tend to avoid addressing this.

[ahinton]

But don't lets Stork about it.

Richard Barrett might pounce upon you for that!

[Richard Barrett]

That still keeps you out of date.

It keeps you more out of date, does it not, unless time runs backwards in your region of the universe. From walthamforest.gov.uk: Chingford Green ward [...] is ethnically less diverse than the borough average with 29% of BAME (Black Asian and Minority Ethnic) residents compared to 55% in Waltham Forest.

[Mr Pee]

On the "strength" of the puerile remarks above, crediting yourself with responsibility for getting this thread "back on track" clearly has less credibility than even you would give to a Guardian article on anything - but let's ask you a simple question or three...

Do you believe that Tchaikovsky (or any other composer that you might care to name) wrote his music in total isolation from and disregard of the social conditions under which he and his contemporaries lived and worked and that, as a consequence, his listeners can and should accept his work as resulting purely from the exercising of all of his very considerable technical facilities for putting notes on paper and organising them well? If so, how would it be possible for anyo0ne else to feel anything about it beyond mere admiration for his technical skills? Such a view would, I imagine, have been anathema to Tchaikovsky, assuming that he could even understand it.

Questions of Tchaikovsky's sexuality in the present context are not simply about that per se but also about the social attitudes to it at the time when he was active, just as was the case with Britten, Szymanowski, Tippett and many other homosexual composers; think of Shostakovich and Roslavets, for example, neither of whom were homosexual but both of whose creative work could not have been other than profoundly affected by the sometimes very unpleasant and fear-inducing social conditions under which they had to function. Do you suppose that Elgar's activity as a composer was entirely separated in his mind from the fact that he was less of an establishment figure than were some of his lesser colleagues? (lower middle class Catholic and all that) or that his and Rachmaninov's frequent bouts of self-doubt had no impact on their work? (and, of couse, Elgar and Rachmaninov weren't homosexuals either).

Let's get the sexuality thing into some kind of realistic and credible wider perspective here; I fear that some who pour scorn on this issue at every opportunity and none - as you seem to take some immature delight in doing - tend to avoid addressing this.

Crikey! Lighten up, Al.

I was just trying to have a bit of fun, since the thread seemed to be heading in that direction, but since you clearly have no sense of humour whatsoever, as evidenced by your dreadful "puns", that fact clearly passed you by. All the stuff you bang on about above has been covered and debated already,and I have contributed to those debates, as I'm sure you know. So if you think I'm going to waste my time responding to your tedious contribution, then I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

[ahinton]

Crikey! Lighten up, Al.

I was just trying to have a bit of fun, since the thread seemed to be heading in that direction, but since you clearly have no sense of humour whatsoever, as evidenced by your dreadful "puns", that fact clearly passed you by.

One man's humour is another man's (fill in the blanks); in any case, my concern was not so much for your margarine and Tchaikovsky stuff but the rest of your attitude to music in general (and perhaps Tchaikovsky's in particular, I'm not sure) as implied in that post and expressed more clearly elsewhere.

All the stuff you bang on about above

I don't bang.

has been covered and debated already,and I have contributed to those debates, as I'm sure you know.

Of course it has and of course I know that you've contributed to it but what you've said before is pretty much the same as now; I asked you some questions about that but, in so doing, conferred no more than the usual obligation upon you to answer them.

So if you think I'm going to waste my time responding to your tedious contribution, then I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

It may be "tedious" to you, Mr Pee - and how much of your time you waste doing what is something on which I am unqualified to pronounce and about which I cannot feign much concern - but you are on the money with your last bit; as I am so often "disappointed" by what you write, you have no need to be "afraid" of that fact...

[Beef Oven!]

It keeps you more out of date, does it not, unless time runs backwards in your region of the universe. From walthamforest.gov.uk: Chingford Green ward [...] is ethnically less diverse than the borough average with 29% of BAME (Black Asian and Minority Ethnic) residents compared to 55% in Waltham Forest.

29% BAME for Chingford bears out what I was trying to tell you. And without time running backwards, or being there as recently as you!

I suppose if you were walking around with your eyes closed......

Also, Chingford Green is the posh, allegedly white bit of Chingford (there are other, bigger, more diverse parts of Chingford). If almost 1 in 3 people there is black, Asian or minority ethnic, then what you said is even wronger.

[Richard Barrett]

what you said is even wronger

I don't see that, but quite honestly I can't be bothered trying.

[Pabmusic]

I have started to see a parallel between this thread (and most others, come to that) and the Second Law of Thermondynamics. All tends towards atrophy unless something is injected from outside, like a fresh news report.

[ahinton]

I have started to see a parallel between this thread (and most others, come to that) and the Second Law of Thermondynamics. All tends towards atrophy unless something is injected from outside, like a fresh news report.

Well, this may not quite be thermodynamic or even a news report per se, but will it do in the meantime?

http://www.joycedidonato.com/2013/09/05/5820/