Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[Mr Pee]

Anyone who thinks Gay Pride discriminates against hetros is either stupid or a troll.

Pee and Scotty, come out from behind your shallow evasions and own up to your prejudices - either you agree that I'm BORN THIS WAY and you hate me because I'm not like you, or your dislike is driven by misguided religious or anthropological certainties - "it's ungodly, not normal, it's unnatural, the animals don't do it" etc.
It won't do to say that you've nothing against gays, you just wish we'd shut up about it: we'll shut up about it when the macho posturing Putins, the repressed Tory ladies wittering on about holy sacraments and "think of the children" on Newsnight, various Ignoble Archprelates from Nigeria to the USA and all the pees, scotties and other anonymous online casual labourers in the cause of hatred and hostility shut up about what we can and can't do in schools, libraries, town halls, the street or in bed.

I don't hate you, but apparently you hate me- along with Putin, repressed Tory ladies- no men then?- and all the others who you lump together. That's the problem; this new new political orthodoxy which says that I MUST think a certain way, follow a certain line, and if I do not then I am some sort of hate-filled homophobic neanderthal, which I can assure you is not the case. If it were, then so would half the country and a large proportion of the word's population. Why should we shut up? I didn't start this thread, neither did scotty. If you don't want any comments that do not share your world view then go to a closed forum where everybody agrees with you.

What has riled me as much as anything about this issue is Fry comparing this fairly innocuous piece of Russian legislation to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany. For a supposedly intelligent individual to come out with such balderdash is laughable. There is no comparison, and to suggest that there is demeans the suffering of the Jewish community during that time, and is typical of the way in which the gay lobby likes to present itself as a persecuted minority when nowadays that is simply not the case. You need to accept that not everybody is comfortable with your sexual orientation. That's not the end of the world.

Live and let live, you keep telling us, but that apparently only works one way.

[french frank]

What I actually said was that the term Gay Pride discriminates against heterosexuals because they cannot possibly share in that 'pride'.

In a world where there is so much discrimination and mistreatment/violence against others, you trivialise the meaning of 'discrimination' if you interpret it in that way. In that sense, childbirth 'discriminates against men': we can't/don't all share in the same things because we're different, but that is not 'discrimination' in any social (or meaningful) sense.

You need to accept that not everybody is comfortable with your sexual orientation. That's not the end of the world.

Very true: not everyone is. That might just have something to do with the fact that homosexual practices were not accepted - were illegal - in our younger days, and that it was swept under the carpet. When the odd 'scandal' [sic] emerged it was a matter of embarrassment in many circles. The world has changed again - think of Ancient Greece.

Ed: Necessary edit made!

[Pabmusic]

Interesting post Pabs.
I wonder if you have any thoughts about some of the physical behaviours associated with male sport, EG Intense goals celebrations, pretty close physical contacts, displays of and appreciation of beautiful movement by men for(predominantly) men, even closer than usual physicality in general, (even in the stands), and how this all sits with the inability of the game to accept openly gay players?
I think this is a least tangental to some of your points.

Sorry if this is OT, or inappropriate. Its not meant to be..the original post was about a sports person after all..:smiley:

Wow! Let me think about it. There's certainly much to be said, but I'm not a professional - keep checking though - I will post an answer. :smiley:

[teamsaint]

Wow! Let me think about it. There's certainly much to be said, but I'm not a professional - keep checking though - I will post an answer. :smiley:

thanks. No doubt other posters may have thoughts. I hope so.

[salymap]

I don't sign petitions, one of the last was to keep our localPost Office. It closed next day.
As a single [straight] woman I realise there is persecution of some people and deplore it.
In one job, a young assistant was told not to get friendly with me as I was SINGLE.

Good grief, I have life long friends, a Gay couple I've known since we were teen-agers and a lesbian friend who died sometime ago.

To me too much is made of this - so many aspects of friendship are a world away from one's orientation.

Goodluck to all, when you get to the age of over 80 getting through the day is all that matters.

[Pabmusic]

...when you get to the age of over 80 getting through the day is all that matters.

Summing it all up so well! :ok:

[Flosshilde]

I think it's silly that anyone should be 'proud' of their sexuality/sexual behaviour

It's equally silly that anyone should be 'ashamed' of it, but that's what your lot have been telling me I should be. But, as I've said in the past, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you as I think you have shown that you are either too stupid to understand, or choose not to (or was that Mr Pee?). But more power to Pabs & Jayne for continuing to try.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

What has riled me as much as anything about this issue is Fry comparing this fairly innocuous piece of Russian legislation to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany.

Legislation that outlaws "homosexual propaganda", meaning the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.

In 2009, Irina Feotova is innocuously arrested for displaying posters declaring that "homosexuality is normal" and that she is "Proud of [her] sexuality" and fined an innocuous £40 for so doing.
On 25th January, this year, as a result of this innocuous piece of legislation, Anton Krasovsky was innoucuously sacked from his job as a TV presenter for letting people know on Air that he was Gay.
Three days later, peaceful protesters demonstrating against the innoucuous legislation were innocuously arrested (those counter-demonstrating in favour of the legislation were left alone).
In February, the Kaliningrad region innocuously extends the ban to prohibit the distribution of "homosexual propaganda" amongst adults.
On 28th March, Artem Kalinin, who was objecting to the innocuous legislation in a television interview, was innocuously beaten up on camera by Alex Kolegov, leader of a Neo-Nazi group in Russia who supports the innocuous legislation. Kolegov has not been arrested.
On May 10th, Vladislav Tornovsky was innocuously tortured to death by his friends after telling them that he was Gay. (Details are on line, but they are truly foul and I refuse to repeat them here.)

The most noticeable element here is the crescendo of violence: as those in authority make clear their hostility to GLBT people, thugs take this as "legitimizing" their violent activities - just as thugs did in Britain in the 1980s after Section 28 was innocuously introduced. This is also where Fry's parallel with Nazi Germany is valid - in 1933, the entire German people didn't all become anti-semitic thugs overnight: but the Thugs who'd always yearned to kick some teeth in, but were prevented when the law was more tolerant, saw their opportunity once those in power gave them a cloak of official approval - there was the same crescendo of hatred amongst German thugs then as we are witnessing now in Putin's Russia. Fry (many of whose family were murdered by the Nazis) knows exactly what he is talking about - and drawing the parallels now might just prevent or at least slow down the escalation of violence.

The petition that many here have signed has nothing to do directly with Putin - it is a petition to Boris Johnson. We seek to influence domestic policy, so that our nation's disgust at government-tolerated thuggery in Russia is made clear.

Oh, and by the way - on 3rd July this year, Putin innocuously decided also to pass a law banning married Gays from other countries adopting Russian children.

[ahinton]

Legislation that outlaws "homosexual propaganda", meaning the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.

In 2009, Irina Feotova is innocuously arrested for displaying posters declaring that "homosexuality is normal" and that she is "Proud of [her] sexuality" and fined an innocuous £40 for so doing.
On 25th January, this year, as a result of this innocuous piece of legislation, Anton Krasovsky was innoucuously sacked from his job as a TV presenter for letting people know on Air that he was Gay.
Three days later, peaceful protesters demonstrating against the innoucuous legislation were innocuously arrested (those counter-demonstrating in favour of the legislation were left alone).
In February, the Kaliningrad region innocuously extends the ban to prohibit the distribution of "homosexual propaganda" amongst adults.
On 28th March, Artem Kalinin, who was objecting to the innocuous legislation in a television interview, was innocuously beaten up on camera by Alex Kolegov, leader of a Neo-Nazi group in Russia who supports the innocuous legislation. Kolegov has not been arrested.
On May 10th, Vladislav Tornovsky was innocuously tortured to death by his friends after telling them that he was Gay. (Details are on line, but they are truly foul and I refuse to repeat them here.)

The most noticeable element here is the crescendo of violence: as those in authority make clear their hostility to GLBT people, thugs take this as "legitimizing" their violent activities - just as thugs did in Britain in the 1980s after Section 28 was innocuously introduced. This is also where Fry's parallel with Nazi Germany is valid - in 1933, the entire German people didn't all become anti-semitic thugs overnight: but the Thugs who'd always yearned to kick some teeth in, but were prevented when the law was more tolerant, saw their opportunity once those in power gave them a cloak of official approval - there was the same crescendo of hatred amongst German thugs then as we are witnessing now in Putin's Russia. Fry (many of whose family were murdered by the Nazis) knows exactly what he is talking about - and drawing the parallels now might just prevent or at least slow down the escalation of violence.

The petition that many here have signed has nothing to do directly with Putin - it is a petition to Boris Johnson. We seek to influence domestic policy, so that our nation's disgust at government-tolerated thuggery in Russia is made clear.

Oh, and by the way - on 3rd July this year, Putin innocuously decided also to pass a law banning married Gays from other countries adopting Russian children.

Well said that man!

[scottycelt]

In a world where there is so much discrimination and mistreatment/violence against others, you trivialise the meaning of 'discrimination' if you interpret it in that way. In that sense, childbirth 'discriminates against men': we can't/don't all share in the same things because we're different, but that is not 'discrimination' in any social (or meaningful) sense.

No, it's not 'trivialising' anything it's really a question of logic and consistency.

What would happen if thousands went on a march declaring 'Straight Pride'? Would that be silly? Of course it would but there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do so. If 'Gay Pride' is considered socially acceptable why not 'Straight Pride'?

It's a fairly safe bet that in the event of any 'Straight Pride' march there would be those on this forum who would immediately cry 'homophobia' and 'bigotry' and how it discriminated against gays.

It is really all so silly. It was probably best summed-up for me by the American comedian at the Edinburgh Festival (who also happens to be gay) who organised a 'Ginger Pride' march against 'gingerism' :biggrin:. I suspect that most of us have either been the victims of and/or have exercised some form of discrimination in our lives.

Still I'm glad that you recognise that 'we're different'. 'Equality' does not (or should not) mean that we all have to think and believe exactly the same!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As soon as some criminal politician introduces a law that forbids the promotion of heterosexuality amongst children and adults
As soon as groups of thugs start thinking they're allowed to beat up, torture and murder heterosexuals simply and entirely for being heterosexual
As soon as Religious leaders condemn heterosexual activities as being sinful and un-natural
As soon as the police raid pubs where heterosexuals are known to meet, purely in the hope of arresting and humiliating anyone engaging in heterosexual activities

I shall join any "Straight Pride" March through London.

[french frank]

No, it's not 'trivialising' anything it's really a question of logic and consistency.

Or, alternatively, reductio ad absurdum.

[amateur51]

No, it's not 'trivialising' anything it's really a question of logic and consistency.

What would happen if thousands went on a march declaring 'Straight Pride'? Would that be silly? Of course it would but there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do so. If 'Gay Pride' is considered socially acceptable why not 'Straight Pride'?

It's a fairly safe bet that in the event of any 'Straight Pride' march there would be those on this forum who would immediately cry 'homophobia' and 'bigotry' and how it discriminated against gays.

It is really all so silly. It was probably best summed-up for me by the American comedian at the Edinburgh Festival (who also happens to be gay) who organised a 'Ginger Pride' march against 'gingerism' :biggrin:. I suspect that most of us have either been the victims of and/or have exercised some form of discrimination in our lives.

Still I'm glad that you recognise that 'we're different'. 'Equality' does not (or should not) mean that we all have to think and believe exactly the same!

Oh dear, where to start? :yikes:

Scotty, Gay Pride was given that name by the Gay Liberation Front in the early 1970s when people could be and were still being sent to prison just because of their being gay. At the time, a lot of straight people didn't see the need for a Straight Pride event because to many of them that's just being Normal :smiley: Let me thank ferney and other straight members of the Board who have spoken out in support - there have always been people brave enough to support the lesbian and gay struggle who have no direct personal axe to grind, except of course wanting to take care of their friends, perhaps their children, etc. You're real heroes :ok::hug:

Mr Pee and The Holocaust - do you not realise that several tens of thousand gay men and lesbians were gassed in the death camps because they were gay, and so were lots of disabled people, and people with learning disabilities and communists and travellers (gypsies) and other groups of people regarded as being second- or third-class citizens? Stephen Fry knows that the Nazi death squads that systematically killed Jews also came after people like him and me & jayne & Ferret etc etc. He sees the Russian thugs and bullies starting with us this time and he's uttered a warning. I think the world needs to take heed.

[amateur51]

As soon as some criminal politician introduces a law that forbids the promotion of heterosexuality amongst children and adults
As soon as groups of thugs start thinking they're allowed to beat up, torture and murder heterosexuals simply and entirely for being heterosexual
As soon as Religious leaders condemn heterosexual activities as being sinful and un-natural
As soon as the police raid pubs where heterosexuals are known to meet, purely in the hope of arresting and humiliating anyone engaging in heterosexual activities

I shall join any "Straight Pride" March through London.

And tens of thousands of lesbians and gay men will join you ferney because we know where such legislation can lead :ok::hug:

Truly The Thatcher Legacy :winkeye:

[amateur51]

Still I'm glad that you recognise that 'we're different'. 'Equality' does not (or should not) mean that we all have to think and believe exactly the same!

Equality of opportunity, scotty.