Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[Richard Barrett]

Sorry Jean, you're right. Excuse me for not paying enough attention, it's sometimes difficult to see the wood for the trees in discussions like this.

I think, Richard, one of the "problems" (as with the National Plan for Music Education) is that it is always assumed that we mean the same thing when we use the term "music". It's odd IMV that those who seem most adamant about the simplicity of "just listening" are also the most hostile to the forms of music which focus on the sonic object namely acousmatic music.

But I don't think Schaeffer et al. were intending that the social/cultural aspects of acousmatic music should be ignored... on the other hand neither am I much convinced by the concept of "reduced listening", except as one possibility among many.

[MrGongGong]

But I don't think Schaeffer et al. were intending that the social/cultural aspects of acousmatic music should be ignored... on the other hand neither am I much convinced by the concept of "reduced listening", except as one possibility among many.

Indeed, though some acolytes (naming no names ) verge on it IMV
There was a very interesting article several years back (I think by Jonty Harrison ?) in the SAN journal about listening strategies which would have relevance here I think.

[scottycelt]

I did attempt a tangential sort of contribution to this in my #351 and #355.

And as one who appeared to strongly object to any sort of 'tangential contributions' on the other thread, this is how you closed #355 ...

' ... and if he was [a closet atheist], my argument is nonsense.'

So, unlike Richard, you did appear to concede we don't really know the true thoughts and emotions behind a piece of music in any historical/geographical context, unless the composer personally reveals these to others?

So you are absolutely correct about the argument ... but we must get back on topic, mustn't we? :winkeye:

[jean]

And as one who appeared to strongly object to any sort of 'tangential contributions' on the other thread...

Who, me?

Rather the reverse, I think!

See my #170 there.

...this is how you closed #355 ...' ... and if he was [a closet atheist], my argument is nonsense.'

So, unlike Richard, you did appear to concede we don't really know the true thoughts and emotions behind a piece of music...

My own listening experience persuades me that we could know - but I'm open to argument.

[scottycelt]

Who, me?

Rather the reverse, I think!

See my #170 there. .

Oh, so it just applied to me, then ... :grin:

My own listening experience persuades me that we could know - but I'm open to argument.

Excellent ... that seems a very reasonable position to take!

[jayne lee wilson]

I'm drained of further comment, but here's an uptodate reminder of why I started these two (yes, just two!) threads (including the one about the Tchaikovsky film)...

http://theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/01/russia-rise-homophobia-violence

[Mr Pee]

I'm drained of further comment, but here's an uptodate reminder of why I started these two (yes, just two!) threads (including the one about the Tchaikovsky film)...

http://theguardian.com/world/2013/se...hobia-violence

Link not working. Probably just as well.

[Tony Halstead]

Probably just as well

Why oh why do you have to indulge in gratuitous nastiness, Mr 'Peevish'?

[Barbirollians]

As JLW's link does not work - perhaps Mr Pee would like to dismiss this one instead ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23901290

[Mr Pee]

Why oh why do you have to indulge in gratuitous nastiness, Mr 'Peevish'?

I wasn't being gratuitously nasty, it just seems to me that opening that link- or the BBC one- will simply re-ignite a debate that has been done to death here already. JLW has made her point. I think it's time we all moved on.

[Bryn]

Though not treating directly with Cage's sexual orientation, John Tilbury's Introduction to Cage's Music of Changes (included in Cardew's Stockhausen Serves Imperialism, starting on page 40) has some interesting points which may be considered relevant to this discussion.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

That's up there with Hinton on the Gunning Fox Index.

[Richard Barrett]

Has some interesting points which may be considered relevant to this discussion.

I think you're muddying the waters there, Bryn. (I wonder whether JT would now stand by what he said in that essay.)

[jean]

Link not working.

Try this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/01/russia-rise-homophobic-violence

[ahinton]

I wasn't being gratuitously nasty

You weren't? Then I'm so pleased that you've done us all the favour of letting us all know someting of which we'd otherwise have been blissfully (not!) unaware)...

it just seems to me that opening that link- or the BBC one- will simply re-ignite a debate that has been done to death here already. JLW has made her point. I think it's time we all moved on.

"We" again? Who are they? And to what location do you seek to relocate them?