Musical Homophobia - or The Homophobia Histories

[Mr Pee]

There is, (according to Landy) both Sound Based and Note Based music ........ but all isn't just about sonic experience. Even the hardcore acousmatics don't seem to believe that.

The what now?

[MrGongGong]

The what now?

People (mostly French ?) who are followers of acousmatic music
look it up if you want to know ........

I know my grammer is a but suspekt et toimes
but

"The what now?" makes less sense than your usual pronouncements

[ahinton]

Would 'a homosexual composer' compose any differently from a heterosexual composer?

I'm astounded there are those who are so obsessed with composers' sexualities and yet so easily accuse others of 'homophobia'.

It wasn't any of the so-called 'homophobes' who instigated this thread.

Maybe it's those who constantly raise and parade sexuality issues here who might be the ones actually suffering from any phobias/obsessions?

Well, I'm certainly "obsessed" with nothing of the kind tbut that doesn't mean that I have somehow immunised myself against the risk of having to recognise how all manner of composers' chracteristics and life experiences affect the music that they write and the ways in which they write it.

[ahinton]

I was rather afraid they might....


Firstly, why might your mind "boggle" if, by your own admission, you are unfamiliar with works about which you seek to persuade us that it does nevertheless "boggle"?



We are in agreement on the merits of the Elgar concerto.

My remark was merely a light hearted reference to the fact that some of your posts are, shall we say, on the wordy side, and that if your musical compositions reflected that, then they might be rather lengthy.

It sems that you have your quote facility mixed up here, although I think that I might know what you meant; you might care to review your post to ensure that what I said is all in quotes and what you write in response isn't, in order to minimise the risk of reader confusion. That said, if (as you say) you haven't heard any of my works, what possible purpose could there be in your speculating idly on their possible length or content and what in any case would such speculation have to do with the thread topic?

[jean]

Maybe it's those who constantly raise and parade sexuality issues here who might be the ones actually suffering from any phobias/obsessions?

Or maybe those who reply so obsessively to those threads are suffering equally?

[Resurrection Man]

This must be the longest sentence posted on these boards? I make it 124 words!

Ah .....maybe 124 words but on the Gunning-Fog Index only a mere 19. AH has exceeded 60 in the past.

[Resurrection Man]

Would 'a homosexual composer' compose any differently from a heterosexual composer?

I'm astounded there are those who are so obsessed with composers' sexualities and yet so easily accuse others of 'homophobia'.

It wasn't any of the so-called 'homophobes' who instigated this thread.

Maybe it's those who constantly raise and parade sexuality issues here who might be the ones actually suffering from any phobias/obsessions?

Well said, Scotty

[Nick Armstrong]

why might your mind "boggle" if, by your own admission, you are unfamiliar with works about which you seek to persuade us that it does nevertheless "boggle"?

I had to leave this thread at that point....

[ahinton]

Ah .....maybe 124 words but on the Gunning-Fog Index only a mere 19. AH has exceeded 60 in the past.

Who cares? And why? If any posts containing long sentences had those sentences broken up (or down, as you please or not) into smaller chunks, the content would be the same, so why not just fire off about said content?

Anyway, as anyone who tally-hoes with the tawffs will doubtless be able to tell you, gunning in the fog can be quite dangerous as well as fail to nail you the brace of grice that you might want to bag...

[Nick Armstrong]

Who cares? And why? If any posts containing long sentences had those sentences broken up (or down, as you please or not) into smaller chunks, the content would be the same, so why not just fire off about said content?

Comprehensibility is the key factor for me.

[ahinton]

Comprehensibility is the key factor for me.

Mon Dieu, that's a long word! - as many syllables as there are pieces in my series of Charakterstücke for piano, indeed (since my stuff's been mentioned here) - but seriously, of course you're right and you echo another pertinent aspect of the very point that I was seeking to make.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Isn't saying that music is only about notes and sounds rather like saying that literature is only about letters and words? Just a thought.

And, I think, quite a good "thought", Mary: one that I've been pondering over. Perhaps not "only" (sound, words, images etc) but the most important aspect. The reason Southey (for example) isn't as highly regarded as Wordsworth or Coleridge isn't because his "topics" and "subject material" are inferior to theirs, it's because they use words better than he does. The story of Joanna Godden isn't a weaker story than Far From the Madding Crowd, but Hardy's use of words is more effective than Kaye-Smith's at engaging the readers' attention and arousing their involvement in what happens. The placing and semi-abstract use of colour is what makes Turner's work more evocative than most of his contemporaries, not the subject matter that he chooses to depict. Mehul wrote works quite as commited to republican ideals as the Eroica; but the notes and sounds can't begin to match the originality of the way Beethoven chooses and uses his.

[Richard Barrett]

I think it would have been interesting if a substantive discussion about what "just the music" means (as a generalisation of the question of Tchaikovsky\s sexuality and its effect on his work, if any) could take place here, but seemingly this is impossible. I'm inclined to think that Jayne's "sensuous, agonised, torch-singing intensity" and so on don't say anything about the sexuality of the composer, and, even if they did, they would only say something about the sexuality of a composer within a certain temporal/stylistic subset of music. Let's not forget that there have been very many gay composers whose work could in no way be thus described: Saint-Saëns, Poulenc, Cage and Boulez spring to mind.

On the other hand (I may be flogging a dead horse here because I don't see anyone apart from MrGG engaging with this issue), the fact that one can say anything meaningful at all about the emotional/intellectual effect of Western classical music (to name only this) absolutely depends on things one has learned about the expression of thoughts and emotions in a certain historical and geographical context (to name only these things). To people without that context (the Balinese musicians cited by Colin McPhee when he played them a selection of piano music from several centuries, for example), all Western classical music "sounds the same" and its poetic/structural features can't be "read". Of course someone like scottycelt takes this context completely for granted, but ignoring it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[MrGongGong]

I think, Richard, one of the "problems" (as with the National Plan for Music Education) is that it is always assumed that we mean the same thing when we use the term "music". It's odd IMV that those who seem most adamant about the simplicity of "just listening" are also the most hostile to the forms of music which focus on the sonic object namely acousmatic music.

[jean]

I think it would have been interesting if a substantive discussion about what "just the music" means (as a generalisation of the question of Tchaikovsky\s sexuality and its effect on his work, if any) could take place here, but seemingly this is impossible...

I did attempt a tangential sort of contribution to this in my #351 and #355.