Wearing of Burka

[french frank]

You seem to be quite unhappy that the 'Catholic lady' recovered her own happiness despite her obvious setbacks and disappointments in life.

By no means! I considered it an objective statement of the facts as I saw them and was perfectly 'content' with any aspect of her life which gave her happiness, including having a son who was a priest and a son who was the father of two grandchildren. I don't find either extraordinary, still less a cause for my own unhappiness. Though I know the change from one state to the other was a cause of some anxiety/unhappiness to her since she discussed it with my mother.

[french frank]

I do find that a very strange claim.

Reconsidering what I said (and I realise this was not a direct reply to me), I would perhaps agree that everyone wants to be happy, but I don't think 'the pursuit of happiness' is in itself what it's about. Happiness, more often than not, depends on what other people do and they have the free choice to 'cooperate' or not. Do people get married in order to be happy? Or have children in order to be happy? The happiness is a result rather than a goal.

I could, on the other hand, say it made me very happy to stay on at university, working almost entirely alone. But, again, I didn't do it in 'the pursuit of happiness' or even because it made me happy.

[Serial_Apologist]

I quite like the expression 'well being' (or wellbeing or well-being) which encompasses things that ought to bring happiness to most people.

One supermarket where I used to shop had a sign reading "Wellbeing" over one of its aisles. Says it all, really.

[Serial_Apologist]

Reconsidering what I said (and I realise this was not a direct reply to me), I would perhaps agree that everyone wants to be happy, but I don't think 'the pursuit of happiness' is in itself what it's about. Happiness, more often than not, depends on what other people do and they have the free choice to 'cooperate' or not. Do people get married in order to be happy? Or have children in order to be happy? The happiness is a result rather than a goal.

I could, on the other hand, say it made me very happy to stay on at university, working almost entirely alone. But, again, I didn't do it in 'the pursuit of happiness' or even because it made me happy.

In most accounts of Zen that I've read, or read of, happiness only comes when its pursuit has ended. Paradoxically the pursuit has to come first in order for it to be "seen through".

[jean]

Do people get married in order to be happy?

I wouldn't have thought most people got married in order to be miserable!

Most people have a fair idea of what will make them happy. Dr Johnson's comment on second marriage as the triumph of hope over experience only indicates that sometimes they get it wrong.

And that one's own happiness involves to a greater or lesser extent the happiness of others doesn't mean one can't both consider others and acknowledge the possibility of failure in actively looking for happiness for oneself.

I was questioning what I understood FrancesIOM to be saying - that because the word happiness is cognate with words like hap, mishap, happen, which denote chance occurrences, it is not therefore something we can plan for.

[french frank]

In most accounts of Zen that I've read, or read of, happiness only comes when its pursuit has ended. Paradoxically the pursuit has to come first in order for it to be "seen through".

But is that suggesting that the pursuit itself is a conscious pursuit of happiness, or just the final result of a particular course of action?

When I've a moment I'll study this - the Paradox of hedonism. It may give me the answer to that question (I only found it because the concept of 'hedonism' occurred to me).

[french frank]

I wouldn't have thought most people got married in order to be miserable!

But not everything one does is either to make us happy or to make us miserable. We do have other motivations, I would think?

[Serial_Apologist]

But is that suggesting that the pursuit itself is a conscious pursuit of happiness, or just the final result of a particular course of action?

When I've a moment I'll study this - the Paradox of hedonism. It may give me the answer to that question (I only found it because the concept of 'hedonism' occurred to me).

They say that sustainable happiness, contentment (as opposed to momentary happiness which needs reinjections from external stimuli to keep it topped up) cannot be achieved by being pursued, by whatever course of action, or however motivated. Like all the best things in life it is free, or in this sense, unmotivated.

I always think certain poetic liberties are taken by those who speak from evident experience of such states of inner peace, mind.

[jean]

But not everything one does is either to make us happy or to make us miserable. We do have other motivations, I would think?

I think my own happiness is always a part of my motivation, if I can possibly manage it.

But perhaps I am irredeemably selfish and an incurable hedonist.

Of course if I were an artist I would owe it to my public not to be happy, as my art would be the greater in proportion to my personal distress.

I'm quite glad I'm not an artist.

[french frank]

Of course if I were an artist I would owe it to my public not to be happy, as my art would be the greater in proportion to my personal distress.

I'm quite glad I'm not an artist.

I was trying to find a quote by the irredeemably miserable Jean Rhys (but can't) which I think I probably read in the intro to one of her novels (The Wide Sargasso Sea?). It was along the lines of "I would rather have been happy than a novelist."

Instead, I could only find:

"We can't all be happy, we can't all be rich, we can't all be lucky - and it would be so much less fun if we were ... Some must cry so that others may be able to laugh the more heartily.”

and (of herself):

"A doormat in a world of boots."

:-/

[jean]

Didn't Susan Hill stop writing when she became happy? But I think she started again.

I've been trying to find the link scotty posted to that gay man opposed to gay marriage and the organisation he founded - buried in there was the idea that it was better for gay people to be persecuted and wretched as so many of them were artists, and it improved their art no end.

[eighthobstruction]

I think my own happiness is always a part of my motivation, if I can possibly manage it.

But perhaps I am irredeemably selfish and an incurable hedonist.

Of course if I were an artist I would owe it to my public not to be happy, as my art would be the greater in proportion to my personal distress.

I'm quite glad I'm not an artist.

Yep don't be an artist Jean ....it's torture....torture while you are thinking of what you will do, torture while you are doing it....and not necessarily addictive but difficult to stop once you start it....

Have read a lot of Jean Rhys....the intro to Sargasso Sea very memorable indeed....but know nothing of Susan Hill....

I always aim at 'peace of mind', I have never really tried for happiness....

[Flosshilde]

Artists can be 'happy' that they are doing what they want to do, or feel they must do, but it has been said that an artist is never happy, or satisfied, with what they produce. It can make other people happy, though.

[Serial_Apologist]

"We can't all be happy, we can't all be rich, we can't all be lucky - and it would be so much less fun if we were ... Some must cry so that others may be able to laugh the more heartily.”

Which seems to suggest that only a limited amount of happiness is available for sharing around.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Artists can be 'happy' that they are doing what they want to do, or feel they must do, but it has been said that an artist is never happy, or satisfied, with what they produce. It can make other people happy, though.

That makes sense, Flossie - a composer/writer/painter (etc) has an idea of a work and is most content actually doing the business of composing, writing, painting (at least when they feel that what they're doing seems to be realizing te initial idea). Once it's finished, they've stopped working on it, and all they are left with is how close it gets to the original idea. Whilst many good "Artists" are happy with what they do (Shostakovich, for example) the tendency for so many of them to rework, revise, "edit" suggests that the work is never complete as far as they are concerned.

Then again, I once had an "A"-Level English student who wanted to be a Poet. Not "to write Poetry", but to be a Poet - giving interviews about his work in the colour supplements, presenting television documentaries (standing on a promontory, accompanied by a Marimba whilst talking about Wordsworth's effect on his poems) - just wasn't particularly interested in writing any actual poems.

(I wonder if Artists would be "happier" if they wore a Burqa when they'd finished a work?)