Wearing of Burka

[Pabmusic]

Hear, hear Jean.

I think only secularisation and education can deal with it in the long run which is one of the reasons I am disturbed by Gove's education policy and the long running religious schools in this country - education should be completely secularised.

Agree 100%. But I still think that Western fashion is a dodgy analogy for wearing the burqa. Yes, I suppose both of them are 'fashion' (in a loose sense) and both probably are controlled by men for men's tastes (but I'm not really sure that this is true of fashion in general). But the burqa arises from a compulsory system. Usually, women have no choice but to conform to the culture, on pain of death or - in the most liberal traditions - osctracision in which they will be labelled 'wicked' or 'evil'.

Western fashion has not got to that stage. (Except for 14-year-olds, maybe.)

[zoomy]

I did not mention fashion in my post - you drew that analogy. But as it happens I think it is the same thing - it is social pressure for women to conform to their roles as a result of centuries of religious mumbo jumbo about man and women and roles etc. It may be more extreme in some cultures at certain times but it is the same.

[Pabmusic]

I did not mention fashion in my post - you drew that analogy. But as it happens I think it is the same thing - it is social pressure for women to conform to their roles as a result of centuries of religious mumbo jumbo about man and women and roles etc. It may be more extreme in some cultures at certain times but it is the same.

Ah! Now I can agree with you.

[zoomy]

Good to have you on board, Pab !

[scottycelt]

I believe Moslem women should have the right to choose to wear the burqa or not. They should not be forced to wear it and should not be lectured by outsiders (especially feminist-indoctrinated Western males) that they shouldn't.

'Centuries of religious mumbo-jumbo' have merely been replaced by modern secular/feminist mumbo-jumbo.

Let Moslem women themselves decide on the issue and let all men (and other women), whether religious or secular, mind their own damned business!

[Pabmusic]

I believe Moslem women should have the right to choose to wear the burqa or not. They should not be forced to wear it and should not be lectured by outsiders (especially feminist-indoctrinated Western males) that they shouldn't.

'Centuries of religious mumbo-jumbo' have merely been replaced by modern secular/feminist mumbo-jumbo.

Let Moslem women themselves decide on the issue and let all men (and other women), whether religious or secular, mind their own damned business!

All of which I support, except that I suspect many Moslem women have no choice, or are so indoctrinated that 'choice' is irrelevant. They still shouldn't wear the burqa in circumstances in which identification is important, such as courtrooms.

[carol_fodor]

All of which I support, except that I suspect many Moslem women have no choice, or are so indoctrinated that 'choice' is irrelevant. They still shouldn't wear the burqa in circumstances in which identification is important, such as courtrooms.

They could be identified while wearing a burqa, by an 'Iris recognition' machine or by good old-fashioned finger-printing.

[BBMmk2]

Yes but what the circuit judge was saying was that about being able to see the defendant. Which is more important, i9 think than these identifying techniques.

[french frank]

Yes but what the circuit judge was saying was that about being able to see the defendant. Which is more important, i9 think than these identifying techniques.

There was also the hoohah about Jack Straw asking a constituent to unveil herself at his surgery because (at least for us in the west) having a conversation with someone whose facial epressions you can't see, and are therefore deprived of a (cultural?) way of interpreting behaviour is difficult. As is, in reverse, talking to someone wearing sunglasses (where courtesy in many circumstances dictates that they are removed -- not perhaps on a sunny beach but when a mere fashion accoutrement).

[Pabmusic]

They could be identified while wearing a burqa, by an 'Iris recognition' machine or by good old-fashioned finger-printing.

Agreed, but it goes deeper than that. Any witness should be seen. The way in which a witness gives evidence - facial expressions and body language - is important in assessing whether someone is telling the truth. Also, we have an open system of justice, which cannot be served by people hiding themselves for cultural reasons.

[ahinton]

I believe Moslem women should have the right to choose to wear the burqa or not. They should not be forced to wear it and should not be lectured by outsiders (especially feminist-indoctrinated Western males) that they shouldn't.

What you believe and what those who do force women to wear it believe are clearly two quite different things. As Pab and FF point out above, there are times when wearing such a garment is in any case inappropriate.

'Centuries of religious mumbo-jumbo' have merely been replaced by modern secular/feminist mumbo-jumbo.

They have not; indeed, in some societies and nations, they've not been replaced at all, by anything!

Let Moslem women themselves decide on the issue and let all men (and other women), whether religious or secular, mind their own damned business!

Well, as soon as you become elected as President of and Islamic country, I have no doubt that you will strive to force through legislation there that gives Muslim women that particular right to decide but, until then, such a freedom wilil continue to be denied to many such women; that said, to those who have any dealings with Muslim women, the matter is "their own business"!

[ahinton]

Agreed, but it goes deeper than that. Any witness should be seen. The way in which a witness gives evidence - facial expressions and body language - is important in assessing whether someone is telling the truth.

That's right although, when a Muslim woman is being tried in a court in a Muslim country, general expectations, as well as her rights to and hopes for what Westerners might consider to be justice, are very different to those that apply to Muslims and non-Muslims in the West; that, surely, is part of the cultural problem that needs properly to be addressed in respect of Muslim women living in non-Muslim contries where a very different judicial system holds sway.

[Pabmusic]

That's right although, when a Muslim woman is being tried in a court in a Muslim country, general expectations, as well as her rights to and hopes for what Westerners might consider to be justice, are very different to those that apply to Muslims and non-Muslims in the West; that, surely, is part of the cultural problem that needs properly to be addressed in respect of Muslim women living in non-Muslim contries where a very different judicial system holds sway.

Oh yes, Ahinton, absolutely. It is a cultural clash and I quite understand what's behind it. My point is that we should not lower our standards to eccommodate a different culture, just because it is different. (Though of course we should be sensitive to different cultures as far as we can be.)

[jean]

...Any witness should be seen. The way in which a witness gives evidence - facial expressions and body language - is important in assessing whether someone is telling the truth....

I wonder about this...isn't a jury supposed to reach its decision strictly on the evidence presented, rather than indulging in amateur lie-detecting?

[carol_fodor]

I wonder about this...isn't a jury supposed to reach its decision strictly on the evidence presented, rather than indulging in amateur lie-detecting?

That's what I think too, jean, which is why I suggested two simple identification procedures that would not require the Moslem lady to remove her burqa.