Wearing of Burka

[scottycelt]

There was a 'may well' about it in that I said "freedom of conscience which may well put them at odds..." I don't imagine that they will 'automatically' be at odds with others, in the way that some people here seem to be 'automatically' at odds with others on every damn political issue that's raised here. And, no, I don't think that conscience and belief are the same. If one needs to explain what 'conscience' means, it is a spontaneous response within the individual that some things are 'right' and other things are 'wrong'.

No! I don't think that Quakers, for example, are saying "We don't think that we should have fixed beliefs" (so join us if you don't have any fixed beliefs either). They are people of a particular feather who come together: they may or may not agree, completely and utterly on particular points, with those who are more formulistic in their beliefs. In one case there are those who feel instinctively that something is wrong - and it would be against their personal conscience to transgress; in the other, there are people know it's wrong because it transgresses certain fixed or doctrinal (taught) beliefs.

I don't really know what your actual point is here. I'm only relaying what it says on the Quakers website! They do not say that they are 'people of a particular feather who come together' whatever the heck that is supposed to mean!!

The Quakers (simply and honestly) say that they are people who do not share a fixed set of beliefs but share a mutual understanding and worship practice but beyond that there is no expectation of unity.

That's fine. But it means it is (as advertised) an organisation of 'no fixed belief' even if every member has his/her own personal set of fixed beliefs!

So obviously those who wish to share 'a fixed belief' would be well advised not to join the Quakers. For those who do not the Quakers may well seem a very attractive option.

In the final resort everyone should be guided by their conscience (genuine). Even some people of 'fixed belief' believe (and are taught) that!

[scottycelt]

Do Quakers wear the burqa then? :erm:

Following Pab's lengthy list I thought it was you who deliberately selected them for comment here ... ? :erm:

[Pikaia]

I have to agree with Pat Condell on this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlkxlzTZc48

[french frank]

So obviously those who wish to share 'a fixed belief' would be well advised not to join the Quakers.

I imagine that those who do 'share a fixed belief' already belong to the religion whose 'fixed belief' they share, so they'd hardly be tempted to join the Quakers anyway whatever anyone 'advised'.

In the final resort everyone should be guided by their conscience (genuine). Even some people of 'fixed belief' believe (and are taught) that!

But their 'belief' and their 'conscience' - as you seemed to suggest above - do seem frequently to coincide, which, in the way that I interpret 'conscience', seems a remarkable coincidence, since the human conscience seems primordial whereas 'fixed beliefs', especially in matters of religion, are more recent constructs.

[amateur51]

Following Pab's lengthy list I thought it was you who deliberately selected them for comment here ... ? :erm:

It was my pathetic attempt to return this thread to its OP

[zoomy]

Women are always being pushed and pulled into all sorts of clothing as a result of commercial interests, religion or just male dominance.

[Pabmusic]

Women are always being pushed and pulled into all sorts of clothing as a result of commercial interests, religion or just male dominance.

Your point being? That being expected to wear the burqa is comparable to the cultural pressures to seek out the new Spring fashions?

[zoomy]

Yes it is exactly that - Obviously not as extreme but the same.

[Pabmusic]

Yes it is exactly that - Obviously not as extreme but the same.

It's a rather dodgy analogy, I'm afraid, since (1) you need not succumb to the pressures of the Spring fashions, and (2) you won't be beaten or killed for not succumbing.

[amateur51]

I am significantly torn here. I do not wish to dictate to anyone what they should wear, male or particularly female, for the reasons that zoomy has noted.

I can see to the point that the judge was making about necessity and ease of identification in court, but I am certain that a workable compromise could be achieved with good will on both sides.

I have a third source of conflict. I have no objection to people who come from other lands for reasons of refuge wearing the clothing customary in that country. I understand that part of the adult refugee experience is a conflict between the desire to fit in with the new country on the one hand, and the psychological resistance to coming to terms with the reality that you may never be able to return whence you came, hence the clinging to a particular sort iof the clothing. However the wearing of body and facial masks in particular distresses many British people because it seems alien to our culture, almost a deliberate waving off difference provocatively in our faces. I try to counter this by ioffeing a particularly loud and friendly smile and 'hello!' to every niquabbed face that I meet.

As a gay man (sorry scotty, Hornspieler & Mr Pee) I have spent nearly the last 50 years assisting the struggle to get recognition of the equal rights of lesbians and gay men in this country which I now share with burka-ed women. i have watched with open-mouthed surprise as our Society has apparently for the greater part learned to accommodate lesbian and gay rights. Brilliant! However, my experience and that of the lesbian and gay movement, is that most of the resistance to our equality comes from fundamentalist religious opinion, whether that is Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu opinion, for example.

For me, the burqa and niqab are outward expressions of a Muslim fundamentalism that I suspect may include anti-lesbian and gay feeling. I don't know this for each individual of course, but I think that I'm not far from the mark generally. After decades of struggle and a great deal of recent success, I feel very uncomfortable that I now have to be faced daily with certain symbols of repressive Islam. I do not wish to ban these modes of dress for the reasons I've given but I live in hope that as generation succeeds generation these aspects of street life will fade away.

[zoomy]

All religions and especially the middle eastern religions - Islam, Judasim, Christianity, restrict women (what they wear, their behaviour, their sex lives etc). Those restrictions have over the centuries that we have had to put up with these awful beliefs transpose themselves into our general culture.

[zoomy]

Apologies for my typos in message above.

All religions and especially the middle eastern religions - Islam, Judasim, Christianity, restrict women (what they wear, their behaviour, their sex lives etc). Those restrictions have, over the centuries transposed themselves into our general culture.

[amateur51]

Apologies for my typos in message above.

All religions and especially the middle eastern religions - Islam, Judasim, Christianity, restrict women (what they wear, their behaviour, their sex lives etc). Those restrictions have, over the centuries transposed themselves into our general culture.

Nice summary zoomy.

[Pabmusic]

...I do not wish to ban these modes of dress for the reasons I've given but I live in hope that as generation succeeds generation these aspects of street life will fade away.

Yes, I hope so too. It's slightly easy - but not too bad an analogy - to point to KKK garb, the expression of a certain type of Christian fundamentalism, after all. I doubt there'd be much support for a KKK Grand Vizier (or whatever they call themselves) to wear the hooded robes in court.

[zoomy]

After decades of struggle and a great deal of recent success, I feel very uncomfortable that I now have to be faced daily with certain symbols of repressive Islam. I do not wish to ban these modes of dress for the reasons I've given but I live in hope that as generation succeeds generation these aspects of street life will fade away.

I think that was basically Stalin's response to the burqa when he had to deal with this issue in the southern provinces of the Soviet Union - he didn't like it but hoped that with better education it would eventually fade away.