Damascus gas attack - who did it and how will the west spin it ?

[Resurrection Man]

This is quite a good article about the legality of war:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23855428

A good article - as is this one that shows that it is not just the US and UK that believe in some form of intervention should it be (a) confirmed that chemical weapons have been used in the recent attack and (b) that the Assad regime was responsible. The Arab League seem to think the answers to (a) and (b) are a given....http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97R12X20130828

[french frank]

A good article - as is this one that shows that it is not just the US and UK that believe in some form of intervention should it be (a) confirmed that chemical weapons have been used in the recent attack and (b) that the Assad regime was responsible. The Arab League seem to think the answers to (a) and (b) are a given....http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...97R12X20130828

But nothing is that simple, is it? There is also the division between Sunnis and Shi'ites: the former 'would say that', the latter 'wouldn't'. Hard to satisfy both but intervention will certainly have more than the Syrian government against it.

[Resurrection Man]

......There is also the division between Sunnis and Shi'ites:....

That has to be the "Understatement of the Year" !

My point was that it was not just the UK/US talking about intervention.

[french frank]

That has to be the "Understatement of the Year" !

My point was that it was not just the UK/US talking about intervention.

Well, at least the UK politicos seem to be pulling back.

How can that be an 'understatement'? I don't say 'a division' but 'the' division. Just a fact, not a description of degree.

[Resurrection Man]

.....

How can that be an 'understatement'? ....

It was meant to be irony.

[french frank]

It was meant to be irony.

Clearly, then, 'heavy irony' - I missed it! I duly filled in my quick LD members' survey on views yesterday. Seems to have worked so far ... (irony).

[ahinton]

My point was that it was not just the UK/US talking about intervention.

And it is clearly a valid one, though talking about it and then agreeing istead to talk about the principles behind it and then pulling back to talking about talking about the principles that might or might not lie behind it are all different to actually undertaking the kind of intervention per se that would almost certainly prove to be inflammatory and destructive - and the very fact that the UN weapons inspectors' duties are now widely thought to extend only to ascertaining whether or not what was used against the victims constituted chemical weapons but not to who might have been responsible for carrying out last week's atrocity seems to me to emphasise the need to pull back from an intervention until all of those facts, including the identity/ies of those responsible, are known; quite how who will identify the culprit/s beyond all resonable doubt remains to be seen or not to be seen in any case and the most important qualifying factor in seeking to justify any such proposed intervention is as absolute as possible a certainty as to thecorrect target of such intervention.

I accept that the most likely guilty party might seem to be the agents of the Assad régime (notwithstanding its somewhat specious sounding arguments that seek to question why they'd have left it so long before starting this kind of thing if indeed they'd done so) but, as there are at least two other credible possibilities, rash and premature intervention could easily go even more horribly wrong than it otherwise might if based upon an incorrect assumption of guilt.

[eighthobstruction]

Is it poor media reporting or what???....that the media that informs us spent 5 days or more telling us about the UN Inspectors intention to find out all the answers....and then to tell us that they are only intending to report on a limited amount of information and conclusions is a great shame....Of course (though one cannot be sure)[THOUGH ONE can BE SURE THAT THE cia WOULD HAVE FOUND SOME WAY TO BE ON THE GROUND THERE] one expects that interviews by the UN have probably included questions like....what did you see?, which faction do you support?etc....though with the possibility of the regime or rebels gassing their own supporters seems to be a double-think that is also on the cards....Is it likely that those most likely to have seen anything will be dead because they were nearest to blast or releasing....As with many things the most likely source of info will be radio/telephone/computer exchanges, but that will probably come from an Allied Israeli source (so can that be believed....)....and this kind of info will not be in the UN report anyway.....It does seem from what politicians have said that they too were expecting a more explicit report...

It will be interesting to see if the USA especially and France as well can be talked down from violent action in their own countries as well as from International pressure....whether they wait for a UK result....Are the Commons Security Committee at this moment looking over secret information dossiers of what is believed has taken place over the last week?....If USA /France go ahead without waiting for UK that will be 'interesting' for the future of International relations....(I think we know UK Govt does want a violent action)

The more I hear the more I am convinced that a violent reaction is both naive and childlike (as someone said on Newsnight)

Camerons intentions ref UN Motion were uploaded onto his Twitter feed yesterday,at the same time as it was published to the press....Pwshhhh....But I notice later in the day it did not say "that bloody Millband is backtracking and thwarting my intentions"....

Interesting what the UK Armed Forces are briefing....story has it they say No Attack....but will have to do what they are directed of course....

[eighthobstruction]

Here's a blase onlookers comment from the BBC News website...>>>"Senior British and American politicians know things we don't.
We elected them to make decisions for us which usually turn out for the best so relax and just let them get on with it."<<<

[eighthobstruction]

Did you see the bomb attacks against Sunni's in Lebanon yesterday....????....

....Hezbollah already firing rockets into Israel....+ Israelli reply....

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/wo...acks.html?_r=0 .... an interesting article....

[eighthobstruction]

A view from the Telegraph....http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...-enemy-of-all/

[ahinton]

A view from the Telegraph....http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ti...-enemy-of-all/

And in general quite a good one, for all its brevity, apart, perhaps, from the assertion that "we" should have had Assad ousted and driven from power years ago, an act that would appear to imply the very escalation of violence against which some rightly inveigh as an inevitable consequence of the kinds of intervention that may or may not now be on the table today.

[Bryn]

Where now for the 'punishment' squad? A pretty significant defeat for Cameron and his fag there.

[Resurrection Man]

Where now for the 'punishment' squad? A pretty significant defeat for Cameron and his fag there.

Significant? Wishful thinking. A majority of 13 is hardly significant. At least this time (unlike Blair) they didn't magic up some hyped dossier.....at least David Cameron has some integrity.

Reading through most of the reasons being put forward for no intervention were the same ones that were used re Libya. Feet on the ground...didn't happen. Sucked into another war....didn't happen. Middle East conflagration ....didn't happen.

So next time...how many dead from a chemical attack? 30? 300? 3000?

I do hope those armchairs are comfy and that your latte's are not getting cold.

[Pabmusic]

...At least this time (unlike Blair) they didn't magic up some hyped dossier.....David Cameron has integrity...

Two premises there that may or may not be causally related. Perhaps Cameron didn't attempt the dossier business having seen how disastrous it was last time. Perhaps there was not enough time. Perhaps...