Danger Imminent - US Embassy shutdown

[scottycelt]

This is true - of course they lie no more nor less than those in power anywhere else. But, given their constant war footing and the need to sustain their gargantuan "defence industry", their lies are generally associated with causing death and misery on a larger scale than others' lies. As for "economical with the truth": just off the top of my head, remember Colin Powell demonstrating that WMDs existed in Iraq? That for one thing was such a barefaced lie that even he looked embarrassed.

I think there probably were a lot of people in power from various countries 'embarrassed' by the failure to find WMD in Iraq. Remember Saddam's cousin had used them against the Kurds so the evidence had already been there. What happened to them after that is anybody's guess.

If Saddam was brought back to life and I was forced to place my faith in the honesty and decency of either the former Iraqi dictator or Colin Powell I don't think it would take me too long to make up my mind.

[amateur51]

I think there probably were a lot of people in power from various countries 'embarrassed' by the failure to find WMD in Iraq. Remember Saddam's cousin had used them against the Kurds so the evidence had already been there. What happened to them after that is anybody's guess.

If Saddam was brought back to life and I was forced to place my faith in the honesty and decency of either the former Iraqi dictator or Colin Powell I don't think it would take me too long to make up my mind.

I'm sure (and that's what bothers me!)

[An_Inspector_Calls]

This is true - of course they lie no more nor less than those in power anywhere else. But, given their constant war footing and the need to sustain their gargantuan "defence industry", their lies are generally associated with causing death and misery on a larger scale than others' lies. As for "economical with the truth": just off the top of my head, remember Colin Powell demonstrating that WMDs existed in Iraq? That for one thing was such a barefaced lie that even he looked embarrassed.

Fresh from reading Fair Game by Valerie Plame Wilson, Powell was never fingered for the lie. Indeed, he was mislead by others. And after the event, Powell freely admits he regrets being associated with the WMD event.

[Richard Barrett]

Powell was never fingered for the lie. Indeed, he was mislead by others. And after the event, Powell freely admits he regrets being associated with the WMD event.

Indeed, and so he should be, obviously. But it was a LIE, scottycelt, a very big one, uttered at the United Nations by the US Secretary of State. Whether Saddam was a liar doesn't come into it. And I don't believe for one second that Powell didn't know he was lying on this occasion.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

The horse's mouth

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/colin-powell-continues-defend-wmd-lies-ira

[scottycelt]

Indeed, and so he should be, obviously. But it was a LIE, scottycelt, a very big one, uttered at the United Nations by the US Secretary of State. Whether Saddam was a liar doesn't come into it. And I don't believe for one second that Powell didn't know he was lying on this occasion.

A LIE is a BIG accusation and I haven't a clue whether it was a LIE or not! I'm certainly not in a position to make any sort of judgement here. Only Powell and maybe a few others know whether he 'lied' or not.

You say you 'don't believe for one second that Powell didn't know he was lying' and that the fact that Saddam may have told lies 'doesn't come into it'.

Are you absolutely sure you are sufficiently politically-detached enough to consider yourself a suitable person to be the judge and jury on this issue ...?

[Richard Barrett]

Are you absolutely sure you are sufficiently politically-detached enough to consider yourself a suitable person to be the judge and jury on this issue ...?

Nobody is "politically-detached", the term makes no sense.

[teamsaint]

Nobody is "politically-detached", the term makes no sense.

quite a lot of the people I know are, RB !! Winkyeyething.

Anyway, back to lies, seems a bit picky really. The leaders of the US and Britain pretty much knew the WMD threat had gone, if it was ever there, but they took us to war by trying to convince us otherwise.
That is enough of a lie really, I would say.

[scottycelt]

quite a lot of the people I know are, RB !! Winkyeyething.

Anyway, back to lies, seems a bit picky really. The leaders of the US and Britain pretty much knew the WMD threat had gone, if it was ever there, but they took us to war by trying to convince us otherwise.
That is enough of a lie really, I would say.

That could well be true, team but none of us here actually know. Being horribly wrong about something does not necessarily indicate 'lying'. If so, we are all proven and accomplished liars.

I'm also slightly uncomfortable with the idea of getting all worked up about Western politicians who allegedly lie but being seemingly 'politically-detached' over similar or even worse behaviour by their counterparts elsewhere.

It just doesn't seem fair and equitable to me.

[teamsaint]

That could well be true, team but none of us here actually know. Being horribly wrong about something does not necessarily indicate 'lying'. If so, we are all proven and accomplished liars.

I'm also slightly uncomfortable with the idea of getting all worked up about Western politicians who allegedly lie but being seemingly 'politically-detached' over similar or even worse behaviour by their counterparts elsewhere.

It just doesn't seem fair and equitable to me.

Who is doing that Scotty?
The ones getting away with it in the way you suggest seem to me to be "our" politicians and their friends in government elsewhere..(Saudis for instance, see SFO thread......)

Edit: and with the amount of info and advice available, being "horribly wrong" shouldn't really be an option, when deciding to go to war.....

[Sydney Grew]

If . . . I was forced to place my faith in the honesty and decency of either the former Iraqi dictator or Colin Powell I don't think it would take me too long to make up my mind.

http://en.rian.ru/images/16118/14/161181459.jpg

I would trust Tariq Aziz much more readily than any of those confounded Yanks (and Brits). He - a good man - has been locked up now for ten years - please do not forget him!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Aziz

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/29/aziz-faces-execution-in-iraq?INTCMP=SRCH

[scottycelt]

http://en.rian.ru/images/16118/14/161181459.jpg

I would trust Tariq Aziz much more readily than any of those confounded Yanks (and Brits). He - a good man - has been locked up now for ten years - please do not forget him!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Aziz

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...aq?INTCMP=SRCH

I agree with you about the unfortunate Mr Aziz, Mr Grew, but certainly not with Ms Arbuthnot's letter to the Guardian. In fact the then Pope was opposed to the Iraq invasion and spoke out against it at the time. I remember it well. So a bit rich (if no longer surprising in some quarters) to include his successor in any blame over the plight of Mr Aziz!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/pope-says-iraq-wrong-to-hang-tariq-aziz/21640

Also, as far as I'm aware it's the democratically-elected government of Iraq that is continuing to cruelly detain Mr Aziz under threat of the death penalty and not the 'confounded Yanks (and Brits)'?

[amateur51]

I agree with you about the unfortunate Mr Aziz, Mr Grew, but certainly not with Ms Arbuthnot's letter to the Guardian. In fact the then Pope was opposed to the Iraq invasion and spoke out against it at the time. I remember it well. So a bit rich (if no longer surprising in some quarters) to include his successor in any blame over the plight of Mr Aziz!

http://www.globalresearch.ca/pope-says-iraq-wrong-to-hang-tariq-aziz/21640

Also, as far as I'm aware it's the democratically-elected government of Iraq that is continuing to cruelly detain Mr Aziz under threat of the death penalty and not the 'confounded Yanks (and Brits)'?

You're not saying that democracy has failed again, I hope scotty :whistlethingy:

[Richard Barrett]

I agree with you about the unfortunate Mr Aziz, Mr Grew, but certainly not with Ms Arbuthnot's letter to the Guardian.

The letter says that the Pope, among others, has been silent on the specific question of Tariq Aziz. The Pope, among others, has been silent on the specific question of Tariq Aziz. What are you disagreeing with actually?