Danger Imminent - US Embassy shutdown

[teamsaint]

I sort of understand that, ts, but it's a counsel of despair, isn't it? Even without getting all religious, (God forbid!), there has to be faith in something. 'Those in power', to me, is a good starting point. Of course, you have to believe that the good guys, or, if you like, the less bad guys, are on the same side as yourself. I ask myself what side I want to be on in this world we live in, and I reckon that the USA represents the best solution to problems as I see them. Therefore, I more readily believe what those in power in America say than those who say otherwise.

I think it's easier for the Irish to admire America than for the English, and though I've never been there, I somehow identify with the sentiments expressed in traditional Irish music. I was listening to this today, quite by chance, and if you have time to listen, you might detect a feeling of reliance on the friendship of America, metaphorically and literally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD89a9xkMGk

I look at what the US government does, not what it says. Same goes for ours, and the Saudis, Iranians and so on. Rights in the US are under constant attack, and their record on foreign affairs is dismal.

No I don't think it is a counsel of despair at all. I think there is real hope in a sceptical outlook. One day, we will arrive at an understanding that power wealth and status (that we afford so generously to those at the top) are utterly corrupting , and something will change.
I feel, FWIW, that the Irish love affair with the US is a reaction to British abuse of power. The US has always, incidentally, had a massive underclass.

[Padraig]

How many instances of "those in power in America" being caught lying would it take to change your mind?

Richard, and ts, you're probably right to suspect that I'm out of my depth in discussions where evidence and authorities and experts are introduced to support proof. My position is that in a world where 'feet of clay' is the norm, one has to rely on one's own instincts. It seems that it's not just those in power who are economical with the truth, so I have to be as honest as I can to myself to arrive at whatever position I take. I'm a simple soul.

[amateur51]

Remind me, would he have said this when he was a fascist, or after?

Nice try KK

[teamsaint]

Richard, and ts, you're probably right to suspect that I'm out of my depth in discussions where evidence and authorities and experts are introduced to support proof. My position is that in a world where 'feet of clay' is the norm, one has to rely on one's own instincts. It seems that it's not just those in power who are economical with the truth, so I have to be as honest as I can to myself to arrive at whatever position I take. I'm a simple soul.

I agree that instincts are very important. And I agree that all sorts of people are "economical with the truth".
One of my biggest concerns is that those with real power are in a position to, and do, affect the various agendas, (political, news, economic) so directly that they are the people who need closest scrutiny.
I watch news agendas particularly carefully. The way that news agendas are managed is very dangerous in my humble opinion.

(Check some recent headlines re Fracking, for instance).

[scottycelt]

How many instances of "those in power in America" being caught lying would it take to change your mind?

I don't think there has ever been any solid evidence produced which shows that 'those in power in America' are 'caught lying' any more than those in power anywhere else.

So why are you always keen to so eagerly swallow the anti-American line from those in power 'anywhere else' ...?

[ahinton]

I don't think there has ever been any solid evidence produced which shows that 'those in power in America' are 'caught lying' any more than those in power anywhere else.

So why are you always keen to so eagerly swallow the anti-American line from those in power 'anywhere else' ...?

Did he say that in so many words? The point surely is that America is a big country and a very wealthy one and its agendas are sufficiently large and wide-ranging and affect so many other nations that the lies for which they do get caught (as well as those for which they have yet to be exposed) are often of greater substance and international significance than those of most other countries.

[teamsaint]

Scotty, America is THE power in the world.
Just because people point out their deficiencies doesnt mean they are accepting of the failings of other governnments.

[KipperKid]

I don't think there has ever been any solid evidence produced which shows that 'those in power in America' are 'caught lying' any more than those in power anywhere else.

So why are you always keen to so eagerly swallow the anti-American line from those in power 'anywhere else' ...?

Spot-on Scotty

[scottycelt]

Did he say that in so many words? The point surely is that America is a big country and a very wealthy one and its agendas are sufficiently large and wide-ranging and affect so many other nations that the lies for which they do get caught (as well as those for which they have yet to be exposed) are often of greater substance and international significance than those of most other countries.

No I asked the question, ahinton, I didn't say 'he' actually said anything ...

As for 'lying' I don't agree that there should be double-standards.

[ahinton]

No I asked the question, ahinton, I didn't say 'he' actually said anything ...

As for 'lying' I don't agree that there should be double-standards.

Nor do I, but did I suggest that there are, still less that there should be?

[Pabmusic]

I sort of understand that, ts, but it's a counsel of despair, isn't it? Even without getting all religious, (God forbid!), there has to be faith in something...

Does there? Faith is nothing more than the belief in things without evidence (and indeed often in the face of evidence). It might make individuals feel good, but is that a good reason for ignoring the truth or not admitting we don't know the truth about something? Faith is the very worst reason to believe something.

We ought to be able to trust people and governments - now I'd agree with that - while expecting to find that their actions match their words. In other words, scepticism should be an important element of our approach to anything. In fact it is. Most of us don't buy new cars, computers (or anything else come to that) based on faith - "I really, truly, deeply believe that these speakers made of cardboard and tin foil will be wonderful" - we want evidence that the claims made for things are true, and we keep our minds open to being proved wrong until we've had the things for several days or weeks. Some of us even return things if we are dissatisfied by them.

I look at what the US government does, not what it says. Same goes for ours, and the Saudis, Iranians and so on. Rights in the US are under constant attack, and their record on foreign affairs is dismal.

No I don't think it is a counsel of despair at all. I think there is real hope in a sceptical outlook...

Agree totally, except that I don't think we should expect to understand any particular thing eventually. Scepticism can't choose a result in advance and work towards it, yet remain scepticism. But patterns emerge, of course.

[scottycelt]

Nor do I, but did I suggest that there are, still less that there should be?

That was what I understood from your post.

You appeared to suggest that American politicians who 'lie' is worse than those who do so in other countries.

That is not what you meant?

So what did you mean?

[scottycelt]

Without an element of faith there is no hope and everything becomes pointless.

I've planned weekend activities because I have faith (and hope) that I may still be around. Yet there is no real, hard evidence I shall still be around.

If I adopted the sceptical attitude that I might not be around this weekend I may as well stay in bed.

We all need a certain amount of faith in order to simply live our lives whether we realise it or not.

[Bryn]

Without an element of faith there is no hope and everything becomes pointless.

I've planned weekend activities because I have faith (and hope) that I may still be around. Yet there is no real, hard evidence I shall still be around.

If I adopted the sceptical attitude that I might not be around this weekend I may as well stay in bed.

We all need a certain amount of faith in order to simply live our lives whether we realise it or not.

I'll take expectation rather than faith, any day.

[ahinton]

That was what I understood from your post.

You appeared to suggest that American politicians who 'lie' is worse than those who do so in other countries.

That is not what you meant?

So what did you mean?

Precisely what I wrote in #51.