Pope Francis and Gay People

[Flosshilde]

He was referred to in a talk by John le Carre on R3 last night, & on the R4 news this morning. JlC also had some interesting comments about the undesirability of Old Etonians in the cabinet (& referred back to his time teaching at Eton!).

[ahinton]

Talking of which, does anyone remember that Edward Snowden chappie? I seem to recall he was all over the papers not long ago. Now......barely a mention.

You must have missed (among other things) John le Carré in the Proms interval yesterday,then; that said, nothing is news unless something actually happens that is newsworthy and, as the Snowden case is likely to be a very long drawn out one, I don't think that anyone, including those directly interested in it, would necessarily expect a plethora of news reevelations daily on it, but that does not in any way detract from its newsworthiness per se. Since Mr Snowden is not the Pope and is not a Roman Catholic (as far as I am aware, anyway) and since it is not likely that he is gay or seeking to join the priesthood, the extent of the relevance of your reference to him here would appear to speak for itself.

(Sorry - just seen Flossie's post!)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Don't be absurd. What on earth makes you suggest such a thing?

I don't know about Mary, Mr Pee, but what made me think that you might assume that only gay people might be interested in gay politics was your comment in #18 that "there are plenty of messageboards for the gay community where you can discuss these issues to your heart's content" - as I am not a member of "the gay community", how can I (and other "straight" Forumistas who might be interested) access such discussions?

Changes in attitudes towards homosexuality from the head of a political establishment that has hitherto been hostile towards it is something of interest to many people beyond "the gay community". Ami's bringing our attention to developments he finds praiseworthy in the Roman Catholic hierarchy shouldn't be "banned" - on the contrary, I can quite easily imagine at least one Forumista pointing out the "hypocrisy" of ami ("and his ilk") had he decided not to post on this matter.

[ahinton]

I don't know about Mary, Mr Pee, but what made me think that you might assume that only gay people might be interested in gay politics was your comment in #18 that "there are plenty of messageboards for the gay community where you can discuss these issues to your heart's content" - as I am not a member of "the gay community", how can I (and other "straight" Forumistas who might be interested) access such discussions?

Changes in attitudes towards homosexuality from the head of a political establishment that has hitherto been hostile towards it is something of interest to many people beyond "the gay community". Ami's bringing our attention to developments he finds praiseworthy in the Roman Catholic hierarchy shouldn't be "banned" - on the contrary, I can quite easily imagine at least one Forumista pointing out the "hypocrisy" of ami ("and his ilk") had he decided not to post on this matter.

Agreed entirely!

[amateur51]

Talking of which, does anyone remember that Edward Snowden chappie? I seem to recall he was all over the papers not long ago. Now......barely a mention.

I update the thread when there's news Mr Pee :smiley: Feel free to do so too

[amateur51]

You must have missed (among other things) John le Carré in the Proms interval yesterday,then; that said, nothing is news unless something actually happens that is newsworthy and, as the Snowden case is likely to be a very long drawn out one, I don't think that anyone, including those directly interested in it, would necessarily expect a plethora of news reevelations daily on it, but that does not in any way detract from its newsworthiness per se. Since Mr Snowden is not the Pope and is not a Roman Catholic (as far as I am aware, anyway) and since it is not likely that he is gay or seeking to join the priesthood, the extent of the relevance of your reference to him here would appear to speak for itself.

(Sorry - just seen Flossie's post!)

It's quite likely that Mr Pee wasn't listening to Radio 3 last evening.

[mercia]

I've misunderstood

are we calling the Pope the head of a political establishment ? :erm: #48

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've misunderstood

are we calling the Pope the head of a political establishment ? :erm: #48

Well, I am, so I don't think you've misunderstood. "Political" in that it has an influence on how people (even those who do not share its values) lead their lives.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

one might think that the Pope of all people would hesitate to judge any one .... as a moral example to the rest of us if naught else .... pesky problem judging people, next thing you are calling them names and it all goes intemperate eh?

has the new Pontiff uttered in relation to the victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse within the institutions and premises of his church? his predecessor was unforthcoming i thought ....

[ahinton]

one might think that the Pope of all people would hesitate to judge any one .... as a moral example to the rest of us if naught else .... pesky problem judging people, next thing you are calling them names and it all goes intemperate eh?

has the new Pontiff uttered in relation to the victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse within the institutions and premises of his church? his predecessor was unforthcoming i thought ....

This, as I have suggesed above, is another part of what one hopes will come about in due course, hopefully in the same or similar spirit as his remarks about gay people and the priesthood; it's one of several parallel issues, along with women priests of either sexual orientation, that one hopes will be brought properly under the spotlight and duly reviewed.

[amateur51]

But I thought the whole point of setting up this thread was that hot political potatoes could be served up for prolonged discussion without disturbing the peace elsewhere on the boards.

Yes, I'm something of a gay militant (verbally, at least), but even I tire sometimes of the gay agenda being too prevalent in the media, but with what's going on in Russia there are still huge corners of the world where the the phrase 'live and let live' and is being horribly trodden underfoot.

The thread is very clearly titled. To those that are tired of this discussion I can only say it is entirely clear what the content is. It says so on the tin.

To those who really think this discussion is a complete bore please check out the following video and you will have the opportunity to see just how live this debate remains:

http://www.out.com/entertainment/pop...88381481237582

A great post and a link that is a 'must-see' - many thanks :ok::hug:

[Mary Chambers]

I don't know about Mary, Mr Pee, but what made me think that you might assume that only gay people might be interested in gay politics was your comment in #18 that "there are plenty of messageboards for the gay community where you can discuss these issues to your heart's content" - as I am not a member of "the gay community", how can I (and other "straight" Forumistas who might be interested) access such discussions?

.

Those are my thoughts, too. This is not just important for gay people, but also for those of us who believe in the importance of equality and lack of prejudice in general.

[Bumfluff]

one might think that the Pope of all people would hesitate to judge any one .... as a moral example to the rest of us if naught else .... pesky problem judging people, next thing you are calling them names and it all goes intemperate eh?

has the new Pontiff uttered in relation to the victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse within the institutions and premises of his church? his predecessor was unforthcoming i thought ....

See, I don't get this, and I don't get Francis' comment 'who am I to judge?'. Well I thought he was the Pope and that judging was what popes do. Popes have been judging people, - their lives, their ideas, their activities, their genders, their sexual preferences - for quite a few centuries now, let's say, ooh, 20. If he wants to revise the job description, fair enough, but it would helpful if he told us this in advance. Otherwise it's thoroughly disingenuous, and news to all the people who look up to the pope for his pronouncements about people so they can decide what to think. "Oh, little old me? Who, me, judge? Well why would I, of all people?"
It's almost the same as if a, well, judge had said it. If he's genuine about this I hope he makes it clear: "Listen everyone, I know every pope before me has made judgements about people, ideas and behaviour, but I'm not going to do that. You're all just as qualified to do so as me."

On the other hand, if he wakes up and realises he's the pope and that judging is what popes do, then he could decide to use this job requirement as a force for good. How about judging that there's nothing wrong with gay people, and that all the previous homophobia was in fact wrong? And then explicitly, clearly, loudly, saying so? Instead of this complete feckless disavowal of the responsibility inherent in his position?

[amateur51]

See, I don't get this, and I don't get Francis' comment 'who am I to judge?'. Well I thought he was the Pope and that judging was what popes do. Popes have been judging people, - their lives, their ideas, their activities, their genders, their sexual preferences - for quite a few centuries now, let's say, ooh, 20. If he wants to revise the job description, fair enough, but it would helpful if he told us this in advance. Otherwise it's thoroughly disingenuous, and news to all the people who look up to the pope for his pronouncements about people so they can decide what to think. "Oh, little old me? Who, me, judge? Well why would I, of all people?"
It's almost the same as if a, well, judge had said it. If he's genuine about this I hope he makes it clear: "Listen everyone, I know every pope before me has made judgements about people, ideas and behaviour, but I'm not going to do that. You're all just as qualified to do so as me."

On the other hand, if he wakes up and realises he's the pope and that judging is what popes do, then he could decide to use this job requirement as a force for good. How about judging that there's nothing wrong with gay people, and that all the previous homophobia was in fact wrong? And then explicitly, clearly, loudly, saying so? Instead of this complete feckless disavowal of the responsibility inherent in his position?

Great post, bumfluff - and I love your avatar :biggrin:

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I haven't detected homophobia on the forum, but I am less likely to than a gay person would, presumably with heightened sensitivity over the issue. However, I di think that there are some who use the forum as a soapbox for these issues, though to be fair, I can't think of anyone who only posts to plug gay issues, whereas there are those who post on other political issues who show almost no interest in Radio 3 and classical music. The forum exists for a reason.