Pope Francis and Gay People

[amateur51]

Depends on what you (and MrGG) mean by 'terrible things', doesn't it? Anything that doesn't concur with your own view you might well consider a 'terrible thing'.

What I mean by 'terrible things' are acts and practices committed by members and officials of the Church that run wholly contrary to Church teaching. Of course the Church authorities should do their utmost to try and prevent such things happening in the same way as Chief Constables should try to prevent police officer corruption. No doubt there is clear room for improvement in the manner some of these things were previously handled by the Church authorities. That now seems so obvious with the comfortable benefit of hindsight and alongside a quite different secular cultural environment. However, in the case of mere mortals, 100% success in such areas can never be guaranteed. There will inevitably be "bad apples" in any organisation and, sadly, one of the largest and oldest institutions on the globe is no exception.

What do you suggest the 'policy shift' in ethics and morality should be on the part of the Church so that these terrible things suddenly 'cease to be so'. ?

I suspect that the latest BBC News Headline falls into the category of 'terrible things'

The Bishop of Aberdeen, Hugh Gilbert, one of Scotland's most senior clerics, is to apologise for decades of physical and sexual abuse of pupils at a Catholic boarding school.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23566192

I'll leave the ethics & morality questions to others but I think it's clear that at present there must be significant doubt about the Church's suitability for looking after children. I'd suggest that each institution should undergo governance reviews to include a care panel, including parents, ex-pupils, social workers and women particularly to whom complaints about care issues could be made. The years of Church's playing its cards close to its chest must end, for the sake of the children, and particularly lesbian and gay children. What about the care of lesbian and gay children in state-funded Catholic-run schools? How can we allow a doctrine of 'instrinsic disorder' to be preached to all children, but particularly to lesbian & gay young people?

[ahinton]

Depends on what you (and MrGG) mean by 'terrible things', doesn't it? Anything that doesn't concur with your own view you might well consider a 'terrible thing'.

Please, scotty, if you et to understand just one thing about my part in this discussion, it should be that I am not in ny sense influcting, or indeed trying to influct, my personal view on it. You yourself wrote of "terrible things" and I did not take you to have intended to mean that these are "terrible" only in your own personal view.

What I mean by 'terrible things' are acts and practices committed by members and officials of the Church that run wholly contrary to Church teaching. Of course the Church authorities should do their utmost to try and prevent such things happening in the same way as Chief Constables should try to prevent police officer corruption. No doubt there is clear room for improvement in the manner some of these things were previously handled by the Church authorities. That now seems so obvious with the comfortable benefit of hindsight and alongside a quite different secular cultural environment. However, in the case of mere mortals, 100% success in such areas can never be guaranteed. There will inevitably be "bad apples" in any organisation and, sadly, one of the largest and oldest institutions on the globe is no exception.

That's all fair enough insofar as it goes and I do not disagree in principle with any of what you write here; where I do depart from you, however, is in the absence of any evidence of your willingness to accept that some of those 'terible things' do not necessarily "run wholly contrary to Church teaching" and it is this aspect that bothers me still, as indeed it should - and, for the record, it most certainly does not just bother me.

What do you suggest the 'policy shift' in ethics and morality should be on the part of the Church so that these terrible things suddenly 'cease to be so'. ?

I am not seeking to dictate to the Church as to how it should go about any of this; that was not the purpose of my post about it. What I was on the other hand seeking to put forward was the notion that, should the Church ultimately decide for and by itself, after sufficient due reflection, that any of its policies that condemn homosexual acts and treat women as second-class citizens in any way run counter to Christian ethics and principles and are therefore to be overridden and replaced, such a change will constitute and represent that policy shift in the ethics and morality that the Church will henceforward choose to present to the public at large, both Catholic and non-Catholic. One of the most enduring - yes, immutable, if you life - aspects of the teachings of Christ is human compassion and understanding; if the Church evenrtually comes to embrace this by implementing such policy changes, it will serve its own interests and those of its flock - and indeed everyone else - very well indeed.

[charles t]

Former R.C. priest - Alberto Cutie - had a high profile presence, tele-vangelizing to latin Americans until he was promptly kicked out of the Church after being caught frolicking with his wife-to-be on a Miami beach.

Writing later (Dilemna - A Priest's Struggle With Faith & Love)that based on his observations, the Vatican establishment was comprised of (at least) 60% gay members.

Pope Francis's commentary would seem to have been somewhat inspired upon what is the Pontiff's daily environment.

[scottycelt]

I fear I may be getting dangerously close to being tempted to say something here about practically all of these horrible decades-old child-abuse cases which already might have appeared strikingly obvious to many, if clearly not the off-topic, one-topic-obsessed member who initiated this thread and, of course, pleading his usual rather unconvincing innocence when doing so. Yes, we must all remember the House Rules (well, maybe not quite 'all' of us!)

I'll now permanently withdraw from this discussion as I learned some time ago that to state the strikingly obvious is not always a particularly wise thing to do on this Forum. And it certainly wouldn't be a 'politically correct' thing to do at any time. So I'll resist the almost overwhelming temptation and concentrate on the women's golf from St Andrews, instead. Some marvellous play on show, it's well worth watching, believe me.

In any case, members all have brains (presumably) and will probably be just about able enough to think for themselves and make up their own minds without any further (or previous) contributions from me!

[jean]

Former R.C. priest - Alberto Cutie -

What a name!

[ahinton]

I'll now permanently withdraw from this discussion as I learned some time ago that to state the strikingly obvious is not always a particularly wise thing to do on this Forum.

Far from it. All that any member here needs to do in order to state the strikingly obvious is to know what it is and be willing to express it, as indeed some have done. What is not necessary in orer to achieve that is to make the patronising comments about the initiaior of this thread to which you have given expression here and which I prefer to refrain from quoting directly.

[Padraig]

.... concentrate on the women's golf from St Andrews. Some marvellous play on show, it's well worth watching, believe me.

Excellent suggestion, scotty. I would too except we are being treated instead to the gaelic version of the round ball game. Mayo are beating Donegal by a significant margin. But, Tiger will be leading the way home in a few minutes on another channel. Delighted that Golf has reared its elegant head on this thread - just the stuff for a welcome change, n'est ce pas?

charles t - I think you'll find that the Parish Priest of Craggy Island dealt with that particular indiscretion, and in fact used it to advantage instead of covering it up.

[ahinton]

Excellent suggestion, scotty. I would too except we are being treated instead to the gaelic version of the round ball game. Mayo are beating Donegal by a significant margin. But, Tiger will be leading the way home in a few minutes on another channel. Delighted that Golf has reared its elegant head on this thread - just the stuff for a welcome change, n'est ce pas?

Well, it might indeed be so if only we had some inkling as to what Pope Francis thinks about golf and what the stance of the Catholic Church on it might be.

[Mr Pee]

Well, it might indeed be so if only we had some inkling as to what Pope Francis thinks about golf and what the stance of the Catholic Church on it might be.

Probably that it's OK to be interested in Golf, as long as you don't practice.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, it might indeed be so if only we had some inkling as to what Pope Francis thinks about golf and what the stance of the Catholic Church on it might be.

I think that the stance is that of St Andrews. (Or, if they're two under par, St Luke.)

[ahinton]

Probably that it's OK to be interested in Golf, as long as you don't practice.

!!! or overhear an under-par-ticipant uttering the words "say caddies fore me"...

[charles t]

[QUOTE=Padraig;319357
charles t - I think you'll find that the Parish Priest of Craggy Island dealt with that particular indiscretion, and in fact used it to advantage instead of covering it up.[/QUOTE]

Thanks...ordering on Netflix as potential antidote to The Grand and Russell T. Davies.

[amateur51]

I fear I may be getting dangerously close to being tempted to say something here about practically all of these horrible decades-old child-abuse cases which already might have appeared strikingly obvious to many, if clearly not the off-topic, one-topic-obsessed member who initiated this thread and, of course, pleading his usual rather unconvincing innocence when doing so. Yes, we must all remember the House Rules (well, maybe not quite 'all' of us!)

I'll now permanently withdraw from this discussion

... possibly sometime to post about music in general, classical music in particular, Radio 3 output, perhaps BBC output in general? ... but no.

[Barbirollians]

I fear I may be getting dangerously close to being tempted to say something here about practically all of these horrible decades-old child-abuse cases which already might have appeared strikingly obvious to many, if clearly not the off-topic, one-topic-obsessed member who initiated this thread and, of course, pleading his usual rather unconvincing innocence when doing so. Yes, we must all remember the House Rules (well, maybe not quite 'all' of us!)

I'll now permanently withdraw from this discussion as I learned some time ago that to state the strikingly obvious is not always a particularly wise thing to do on this Forum. And it certainly wouldn't be a 'politically correct' thing to do at any time. So I'll resist the almost overwhelming temptation and concentrate on the women's golf from St Andrews, instead. Some marvellous play on show, it's well worth watching, believe me.

In any case, members all have brains (presumably) and will probably be just about able enough to think for themselves and make up their own minds without any further (or previous) contributions from me!

That the vast majority of child abusers are apparently heterosexual and in relationships with women ?

I trust that you were not going to repeat that utterly discredited old canard equating homosexuality and paedophilia?

[Sydney Grew]

. . . the latest BBC News Headline . . .

is - Codswallop!

Henry the Eighth started this particular witch-hunt did he not? And it's evidently not over yet! The real question is whether modern Britain remains a fundamentally religious land.