Community and democracy

[ahinton]

At last, alas it doesn't.

It's the unelected commission that runs Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

For what I hope will be the last time, are you - or would you be - happy with a national government that is both willing to endorse a snoopers' charter such as is now being discussed AND continue to sanction and endorse by statute an immunity against liability for damages in favour of certain organsiations that are otherwise supposed ostensibly to fall within its jurisdiction? - and do you consider such situations any more or less "undemocratic" than those about which you complain of the European Commission? Whatever you may say or think, I can assure you that the European Commission has no demonstrable monopoly on playing fast and loose with the tenets and principles of democracy!

[ahinton]

It is a rubber-stamping talking shop. It is a pretty irrelevant body. The commission runs the EU and that's the problem. Who can call a government 'democratic' if it contains not one elected person? There would not be an issue otherwise. That's to say nothing of the ECB (teamsaint has already set out the facts on that one).

Just because a national government is ostensibly "elected" in a democratically conducted General Election (although no one "elected the current coalition and could not have done as it was not an option put to voters at the last UK General Election) does not mean that it will be guaranteed to act solely in a democratic manner at all times for the benefit and in the interests of the electorate that it is supposed to represent.

[Beef Oven]

For what I hope will be the last time, are you - or would you be - happy with a national government that is both willing to endorse a snoopers' charter such as is now being discussed AND continue to sanction and endorse by statute an immunity against liability for damages in favour of certain organsiations that are otherwise supposed ostensibly to fall within its jurisdiction? - and do you consider such situations any more or less "undemocratic" than those about which you complain of the European Commission? Whatever you may say or think, I can assure you that the European Commission has no demonstrable monopoly on playing fast and loose with the tenets and principles of democracy!

Two wrongs make a right?

For the record, I have no real issue with the snoopy charter, on the assumption that it merely extends to the internet what is already in place for landlines and mobile phones.

[french frank]

It is a rubber-stamping talking shop. It is a pretty irrelevant body. The commission runs the EU and that's the problem. Who can call a government 'democratic' if it contains not one elected person? There would not be an issue otherwise. That's to say nothing of the ECB (teamsaint has already set out the facts on that one).

So where do you think the Council comes in to the legislation?

[Beef Oven]

So where do you think the Council comes in to the legislation?

You tell me. Other than being a jolly good wheeze for its members it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Even wiki struggles to make sense of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

[french frank]

You tell me.

It is a co-legislator with the parliament. The two bodies together pass the laws, not the Commission. One is directly elected, the other has national politicians who are directly elected to their own parliaments.

[ahinton]

Two wrongs make a right?

Of course not. Did I suggest that they do or might? Would you care to answer the question that I put to you?

For the record, I have no real issue with the snoopy charter, on the assumption that it merely extends to the internet what is already in place for landlines and mobile phones.

For the record, I do have an issue with it, to the extent that it would not, as you appear to claim, "merely extend to the internet what is already in place for landlines and mobile phones" but extend to GCHQ, other government and local authority departments and who knows what others a license to collect, process, store and possibly even distribute data that is and should remain the rightful property of individuals and corporations without the sanction of those owners.

[Beef Oven]

It is a co-legislator with the parliament. The two bodies together pass the laws, not the Commission. One is directly elected, the other has national politicians who are directly elected to their own parliaments.

Come on, get curious!


Even wiki struggles to make sense of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

[ahinton]

You tell me. Other than being a jolly good wheeze for its members it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Even wiki struggles to make sense of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

Just out of interest, do you suppose that, were a future UKIP government (if you'll pardon the conceptual contradiction in terms that such a notion is) successfully to pull UK out of EU altogether, the effects of the actions and inactions of the allegedly undemocratic European Commission would not continue to be felt within UK pretty much as they might be now? Since mere political severance of UK from EU would not signal the curtailment of business and all manner of other interaction between UK and EU, UK would still be very much subject to the decisions and the actions and inactions of the EC because all relationships between UK and EU would be subject to laws.

[Beef Oven]

Would you care to answer the question that I put to you?

I've lost track of the question. Please re-put it (succinctly).

[Beef Oven]

Just out of interest, do you suppose that, were a future UKIP government (if you'll pardon the conceptual contradiction in terms that such a notion is) successfully to pull UK out of EU altogether, the effects of the actions and inactions of the allegedly undemocratic European Commission would not continue to be felt within UK pretty much as they might be now? Since mere political severance of UK from EU would not signal the curtailment of business and all manner of other interaction between UK and EU, UK would still be very much subject to the decisions and the actions and inactions of the EC because all relationships between UK and EU would be subject to laws.

What's UKIP got to do, got to do with it? If you want to discuss UKIP, start a new thread.

[ahinton]

I've lost track of the question. Please re-put it (succinctly).

You seem not to be concentrating. I'll repeat what I asked you in #106, namely

"For what I hope will be the last time, are you - or would you be - happy with a national government that is both willing to endorse a snoopers' charter such as is now being discussed AND continue to sanction and endorse by statute an immunity against liability for damages in favour of certain organsiations that are otherwise supposed ostensibly to fall within its jurisdiction? - and do you consider such situations any more or less "undemocratic" than those about which you complain of the European Commission?"

and I will also repeat that one posed in #114, namely

"do you suppose that, were a future UKIP government (if you'll pardon the conceptual contradiction in terms that such a notion is) successfully to pull UK out of EU altogether, the effects of the actions and inactions of the allegedly undemocratic European Commission would not continue to be felt within UK pretty much as they might be now?"

[ahinton]

What's UKIP got to do, got to do with it? If you want to discuss UKIP, start a new thread.

It has nothing to do with it beyond the nevertheless salient fact that no government run by any other UK political party would seek to pull UK out of EU in the first place, which was all that gave rise to my mention of UKIP; for the record, I do not wish otherwise to "discuss UKIP" and would not in any case take orders from you to start a new thread on it if I did.

Now for your answers, please.

[french frank]

Come on, get curious!


Even wiki struggles to make sense of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

Good idea! I looked here. That seems quite clear.

[Beef Oven]

Good idea! I looked here. That seems quite clear.

Your curiosity knows no bounds!?. If you were a cat, you'd have ten lives.

This website is an EU website, what do you expect!?

By the way, even they say that the commission (as we have learned, is an un-elected body of suited managers), 'is the only institution empowered (!!!?) to initiate legislation.'