Afghanistan - the reality

[ardcarp]

It is worth listening to the final 5 minutes of today's Today Programme on Radio 4. Two interviewees who have first-hand knowledge of the country talk about the actual impliactions of British troops going to and leaving Afghanistan...including the cost in lives and money.

Our politicians must be aware of this, of course, but one wonders why they have to perpetuate the myth about our aims and what has been achieved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02x7h0x

Begin about 2hrs 54 mins in.

[ahinton]

It is worth listening to the final 5 minutes of today's Today Programme on Radio 4. Two interviewees who have first-hand knowledge of the country talk about the actual impliactions of British troops going to and leaving Afghanistan...including the cost in lives and money.

Our politicians must be aware of this, of course, but one wonders why they have to perpetuate the myth about our aims and what has been achieved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02x7h0x

Begin about 2hrs 54 mins in.

Indeed. I heard this myself. I do wish that it were more widely acknowledged that Britain's (and other unjust invaders') "rôle" in Afghanistan has achieved very little of any use yet cost the already cash-strapped British taxpayer alone some forty thousand million pounds; if Afghanistan will be left in more or less the same state that it was in when the Brits invaded, what on earth was or ever could have been the point? In addition to the vast financial cost, several hundred Brits have lost their lives as a direct consequence of the implementation of successive British governments' policies on Afghanistan.

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed. I heard this myself. I do wish that it were more widely acknowledged that Britain's (and other unjust invaders') "rôle" in Afghanistan has achieved very little of any use yet cost the already cash-strapped British taxpayer alone some forty thousand million pounds; if Afghanistan will be left in more or less the same state that it was in when the Brits invaded, what on earth was or ever could have been the point? In addition to the vast financial cost, several hundred Brits have lost their lives as a direct consequence of the implementation of successive British governments' policies on Afghanistan.

Nobody in either of the 3 governing parties [sic] is going to admit this - partly because of bi-partisanship on this and the Iraqi occupations; partly because it makes mockery with any notions as to the benefits, to anyone, of arming the "opposition" in Syria; and partly because any admission would be taken as an "insult" to the British armed forces and those in them who sacrificed their lives.

I sincerely hope that the Coalition Against The War goes ahead and organises some demonstration in London, should Cameron and Hague declare any arms to Syrians. Haig admitted, when asked, on the so-called Sunday Politics Show, if it were true that British troops are in Jordan; asked to explain he stated this was for "training purposes". Training whom was never asked - a missed opportunity.

[Frances_iom]

Today's announcement that the US is in direct talks with Taliban is the acknowledgement that so many lives were squandered (a la Vietnam) with no benefit except to the companies behind the US war machine - however the biggest joke is that the Taliban are expected to sign up to respect Women's rights and also the rights of minorities - as educated Turks are finding out Islam and democracy as preached and most experienced in the west is totally incompatible with Islam and the Taliban are literalists in their reading of the Quran

[ahinton]

Today's announcement that the US is in direct talks with Taliban is the acknowledgement that so many lives were squandered (a la Vietnam) with no benefit except to the companies behind the US war machine - however the biggest joke is that the Taliban are expected to sign up to respect Women's rights and also the rights of minorities - as educated Turks are findining out Islam and democracy as preached and most experienced in the west is totally incompatible with Islam and the Taliban are literalists in their reading of the Quran

Quite. I'm pleased that you've cited Vietnam; if ever there was an event in 20th century history whose "progress" and outcomes ought to have taught US, UK and others the lesson that they are still obviously determined not to learn, Vietnam is surely it.

[anotherbob]

Speaking of lessons unlearned this article by Rory Stewart is worth a read.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/debate/columnists/rory-stewart-iraq-was-britain-s-biggest-ever-blunder-we-must-learn-the-lesson-of-our-failure-1-5773760

[amateur51]

Speaking of lessons unlearned this article by Rory Stewart is worth a read.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/...lure-1-5773760

Good stuff, many thanks anotherbob! :ela::ok:

[teamsaint]

Well the "lessons" have been there to learn for as far back as anybody cares to look, including the well made cases in earlier posts.

The actual lesson is surely that out " leaders", or more accurately masters, really aren't interested in what we perceive as the lessons.
They are interested in other things.
Th disregard for the protests against the Iraq invasion said it all.

[DracoM]

MANY thanks, ardcarp.
I too heard it. Five minutes of absolutely no punches pulled stuff from two speakers who had first hand, nay hands-on experience.
AT LAST someone has on public radio's most prestigious news programme. More or less what many, many people have been saying from day one.

Just a minute, chaps......History? Erm...the Great Game etc? The Russians' ignominious and exhausted withdrawal? Did we learn anything?

What shall we do now, then?

Ooh, yes, I know, let's go into Syria to sort them out. We're so technologically superior and we KNOW what's best for everybody.

ARE THEY NUTS????

[teamsaint]

MANY thanks, ardcarp.
I too heard it. Five minutes of absolutely no punches pulled stuff from two speakers who had first hand, nay hands-on experience.
AT LAST someone has on public radio's most prestigious news programme. More or less what many, many people have been saying from day one.

Just a minute, chaps......History? Erm...the Great Game etc? The Russians' ignominious and exhausted withdrawal? Did we learn anything?

What shall we do now, then?

Ooh, yes, I know, let's go into Syria to sort them out. We're so technologically superior and we KNOW what's best for everybody ever time.

ARE THEY NUTS????

oh no, not nuts in the way we usually think.
They are astute, and advised by the finest minds.
The chaos, death, cost, use of arms, power games, control, fear (and so on), endless bank loans etc are what they want.
By the time the war is being fought "they" have already won.

[scottycelt]

I disagree ...

Though the US provides by far the greatest forces, this was a UN-sanctioned Nato-led operation and I remember that even Russia facilitated easier movements for the Coalition troops and equipment. Our anti-American forum members should not continue to pretend otherwise,

Would the Taliban now be preparing for direct talks with the US without the battles of the last 12 years? I think it's much more likely it would have been in full control of the country long ago. The fact that it is now prepared to talk suggests it is also tiring of the conflict.

Whether any war is really worth it is a moot point. It's certainly never for those soldiers who have arms and legs blown off and for the relatives and friends of those who have lost their lives. All war is horrific but, alas, not always avoidable if we don't want to end up fighting even more wars in the future.

It's far too soon to pronounce judgement. If Afghanistan does proceed to a more stable tomorrow then future generations may look back and take a quite different view of this admittedly long, drawn-out and messy conflict.

[vinteuil]

It's far too soon to pronounce judgement. If Afghanistan does proceed to a more stable tomorrow then future generations may look back and take a quite different view of this admittedly long, drawn-out and messy conflict.

.

In 1843, the British army chaplain Rev. G.R. Gleig wrote a memoir of the disastrous (First) Anglo-Afghan War, of which he was one of the very few survivors. He wrote that it was


"a war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war. Our eventual evacuation of the country resembled the retreat of an army defeated”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War

[scottycelt]

.

In 1843, the British army chaplain Rev. G.R. Gleig wrote a memoir of the disastrous (First) Anglo-Afghan War, of which he was one of the very few survivors. He wrote that it was


"a war begun for no wise purpose, carried on with a strange mixture of rashness and timidity, brought to a close after suffering and disaster, without much glory attached either to the government which directed, or the great body of troops which waged it. Not one benefit, political or military, was acquired with this war. Our eventual evacuation of the country resembled the retreat of an army defeated”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War

I am aware of unsuccessful British and Russian involvement in past centuries, vinteuil ... both experiences involved unilateral, imperialistic missions.

All I'm saying is that it's far too soon to cry with ill-disguised forum glee ... ' I told you so!'

[teamsaint]

Scotty do you really believe that the point of these wars is to win them, and create a better, more peaceful, stable , Just and affluent country for the residents.
Really believe it, I mean?

[DracoM]

Do the Taliban = Al-Qaeda?