Originally posted by Pabmusic
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Privacy and the State
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amateur51
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scottycelt
Originally posted by Pabmusic View PostI wish I could be as selective as you seem to be, Scotty. An example - nothing I said was seriously altered by your revelations that the person who made the objectionable comments was Australian rather than American, nor that he was not the head of the SA in the US. He was in fact a senior official of the SA in Australia being interviewed in his official capacity.
As for Hitler, we've spoken of him a couple of times and this really will not be resolved by resort to Wikipedia.
Certainly, when it comes to the truth about Hitler, even Wiki is a somewhat more reliable source than Herr Goebbels, I'd have thought ... ?
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scottycelt
Originally posted by amateur51 View PostPabs has very decently conceded the points that you've made several times now scotty but calling it tosh is nonsense. Hitler was raised as a Catholic and, as we know from your example, shaking off this indoctrination can prove mighty difficult, however much you'd wish that not to be true, no? Of course, that's why the denizens of all churches, mosques, temples, synagogues etc like to catch people when they're very young, I suppose.
Perhaps this experience will give you pause the next time you choose to poke fun at the idea of atheists, but I very much doubt it.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by amateur51 View PostHitler was raised as a Catholic
Originally posted by amateur51 View Postshaking off this indoctrination can prove mighty difficult
Originally posted by amateur51 View Postthat's why the denizens of all churches, mosques, temples, synagogues etc like to catch people when they're very young
I'm sorry, where exactly is the "tosh"?
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scottycelt
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Posttrue
true
true (or even unborn)
I'm sorry, where exactly is the "tosh"?
a) He (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother ... his father was anti-clerical ... but he (younger Hitler) threw off the 'shackles' in early adulthood. Adolf was in no way a Catholic in 1943 (as claimed) any more than Josef Stalin was committed to the Russian Orthodox Church at the same time. I believe he (Hitler) also flirted with the Communist Party for a short period.
b) That's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!
c) Again merely your clearly subjective opinion. However, I'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds. I cannot speak for other religions of course and no doubt there are some where such injustices do occur.
So basically that's your 'tosh' which was (and is) presented as 'fact'.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by scottycelt View PostHe (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother
Originally posted by scottycelt View PostThat's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.
Originally posted by scottycelt View PostI'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds
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Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI refer you to a survey carried out at the University of Michigan in 1998, regarding the percentage of people raised in a particular religion who retained that religion into adulthood:
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.
Of course, it is not at all clear what 'retained their religion' means, nor is it clear where the survey was carried out.
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Richard Barrett
Originally posted by jean View Postnor is it clear where the survey was carried out
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amateur51
Originally posted by scottycelt View PostNo need to apologise, but here we go ...
a) He (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother ... his father was anti-clerical ... but he (younger Hitler) threw off the 'shackles' in early adulthood. Adolf was in no way a Catholic in 1943 (as claimed) any more than Josef Stalin was committed to the Russian Orthodox Church at the same time. I believe he (Hitler) also flirted with the Communist Party for a short period.
b) That's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!
c) Again merely your clearly subjective opinion. However, I'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds. I cannot speak for other religions of course and no doubt there are some where such injustices do occur.
So basically that's your 'tosh' which was (and is) presented as 'fact'.
How appropriate to mention this around the time of the walking dead and others zomboids.
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Originally posted by jean View PostI find those figures very surprising - especially the 90.4% raised as 'Protestant'. If that were true, the churches would be bursting at the seams, which they clearly are not.
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amateur51
Meanwhile, back On-topic ...
As a riposte to those who choose to believe that Americans are not getting wound up about the spying activities of the NSA, I offer this from Andrew Sullivan ...
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scottycelt
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post"Hitler was raised as a Catholic." So far, so good.
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI refer you to a survey carried out at the University of Michigan in 1998, regarding the percentage of people raised in a particular religion who retained that religion into adulthood:
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostI suppose you've never come across missionaries, or the Spanish Inquisition.
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostBut remember, we're not talking about being "forced", we're talking about the reasons why churches like to grab people while they're young - that is what you said was tosh in Amateur51's post.
Originally posted by Richard Barrett View PostAs Schopenhauer puts it in On Religion: "... as the capacity for believing is strongest in childhood, special care is taken to make sure of this tender age. This has much more to do with the doctrines of belief taking root than threats and reports of miracles. If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one's own existence." Is that tosh, do you think?
Not that his 'tosh' was too 'occasional'. He also wrote this .. ."Women are directly fitted for acting as the nurses and teachers of our early childhood by the fact that they are themselves childish, frivolous and short-sighted"
I don't for a minute doubt his admirable bravery and huge capacity for independent thought!
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