Privacy and the State

[amateur51]

I wish I could be as selective as you seem to be, Scotty.

Too late for that now I fear, Pabs - it takes many years of dedicated practice, evidently.

[scottycelt]

I wish I could be as selective as you seem to be, Scotty. An example - nothing I said was seriously altered by your revelations that the person who made the objectionable comments was Australian rather than American, nor that he was not the head of the SA in the US. He was in fact a senior official of the SA in Australia being interviewed in his official capacity.

As for Hitler, we've spoken of him a couple of times and this really will not be resolved by resort to Wikipedia.

I don't think any of the facts on Wiki have been disputed, Pabs ... I've merely provided the link to these facts and revealed that much of your story was a deliberate hoax and is now on the official list of known hoaxes! You were being 'selective' by ignoring that the alleged remarks by the Australian SA official had immediately been publicly disowned by the SA itself which lends a wholly different aspect to the story than the one you gave.

Certainly, when it comes to the truth about Hitler, even Wiki is a somewhat more reliable source than Herr Goebbels, I'd have thought ... ?

[scottycelt]

Pabs has very decently conceded the points that you've made several times now scotty but calling it tosh is nonsense. Hitler was raised as a Catholic and, as we know from your example, shaking off this indoctrination can prove mighty difficult, however much you'd wish that not to be true, no? Of course, that's why the denizens of all churches, mosques, temples, synagogues etc like to catch people when they're very young, I suppose.

Perhaps this experience will give you pause the next time you choose to poke fun at the idea of atheists, but I very much doubt it.

Well, we didn't have to wait very long for the tosh!

[Richard Barrett]

Hitler was raised as a Catholic

true

shaking off this indoctrination can prove mighty difficult

true

that's why the denizens of all churches, mosques, temples, synagogues etc like to catch people when they're very young

true (or even unborn)

I'm sorry, where exactly is the "tosh"?

[scottycelt]

true

true
true (or even unborn)

I'm sorry, where exactly is the "tosh"?

No need to apologise, but here we go ...

a) He (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother ... his father was anti-clerical ... but he (younger Hitler) threw off the 'shackles' in early adulthood. Adolf was in no way a Catholic in 1943 (as claimed) any more than Josef Stalin was committed to the Russian Orthodox Church at the same time. I believe he (Hitler) also flirted with the Communist Party for a short period.

b) That's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!

c) Again merely your clearly subjective opinion. However, I'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds. I cannot speak for other religions of course and no doubt there are some where such injustices do occur.

So basically that's your 'tosh' which was (and is) presented as 'fact'.

[Richard Barrett]

He (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother

"Hitler was raised as a Catholic." So far, so good.

That's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!

I refer you to a survey carried out at the University of Michigan in 1998, regarding the percentage of people raised in a particular religion who retained that religion into adulthood:
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.

I'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds

I suppose you've never come across missionaries, or the Spanish Inquisition. But remember, we're not talking about being "forced", we're talking about the reasons why churches like to grab people while they're young - that is what you said was tosh in Amateur51's post. As Schopenhauer puts it in On Religion: "... as the capacity for believing is strongest in childhood, special care is taken to make sure of this tender age. This has much more to do with the doctrines of belief taking root than threats and reports of miracles. If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one's own existence." Is that tosh, do you think?

[jean]

I refer you to a survey carried out at the University of Michigan in 1998, regarding the percentage of people raised in a particular religion who retained that religion into adulthood:
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.

I find those figures very surprising - especially the 90.4% raised as 'Protestant'. If that were true, the churches would be bursting at the seams, which they clearly are not.

Of course, it is not at all clear what 'retained their religion' means, nor is it clear where the survey was carried out.

[Richard Barrett]

nor is it clear where the survey was carried out

I thought "University of Michigan" would make that clear enough! although I see that the study was only published by that university, having actually been carried out by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. The full paper (together with details of the survey and the questions asked) is here:

http://publicdata.norc.org:41000/gss/DOCUMENTS/REPORTS/Social_Change_Reports/SC26.pdf

[jean]

I worded that badly - what I meant was how wide-ranging it was, whether it only included Americans (who are far more likely than Europeans to consider themselves affiliated to any Protestant sect).

[Richard Barrett]

I worded that badly - what I meant was how wide-ranging it was, whether it only included Americans (who are far more likely than Europeans to consider themselves affiliated to any Protestant sect).

I think it did, yes.

[amateur51]

Well, we didn't have to wait very long for the tosh!

I hope that your 'tosh' is posited as an opinion rather than as a fact, scotty.

[amateur51]

No need to apologise, but here we go ...

a) He (Hitler) was raised a Catholic by his mother ... his father was anti-clerical ... but he (younger Hitler) threw off the 'shackles' in early adulthood. Adolf was in no way a Catholic in 1943 (as claimed) any more than Josef Stalin was committed to the Russian Orthodox Church at the same time. I believe he (Hitler) also flirted with the Communist Party for a short period.

b) That's your opinion and obviously completely without foundation in Adolf's case ... so case easily dismissed!

c) Again merely your clearly subjective opinion. However, I'm not aware that people are forced to adopt Catholicism and Christianity in general in the way that many millions have been forcibly subjected to Marxism and other similar atheistic creeds. I cannot speak for other religions of course and no doubt there are some where such injustices do occur.

So basically that's your 'tosh' which was (and is) presented as 'fact'.

But you are a living, walking ever-lasting typing example of the brain-washing nature of religion,scotty - you couldn't have an original unreligiously-inspired thought if your life depended on it.

How appropriate to mention this around the time of the walking dead and others zomboids.

[Serial_Apologist]

I find those figures very surprising - especially the 90.4% raised as 'Protestant'. If that were true, the churches would be bursting at the seams, which they clearly are not.

Not necessarily jean; I know of many still believing Christians of my own age-group (68 coming up) who have given up on Church attendance due to changes in service itineraries, eg non-performance of the Psalms, giving of The Blessing followed by other observances, hymns etc, but most expecially the growing prevalence of Gospel-type hymn settings replacing The English Hymnal.

[amateur51]

Meanwhile, back On-topic ...

As a riposte to those who choose to believe that Americans are not getting wound up about the spying activities of the NSA, I offer this from Andrew Sullivan ...

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/29/spy-vs-spy/

[scottycelt]

"Hitler was raised as a Catholic." So far, so good.

But that has never been queried. What is challenged is that Hitler was a 'Catholic' in 1943 as stated in Pab's post, apparently via Herr Goebbels. You obviously haven't read either of our posts properly. Professor Richard Dawkins was raised as an Anglican. Are you suggesting because he was 'brought up' an Anglican that, due to religious 'indoctrination', he still remains an Anglican to this day despite constantly and publicly declaring he is an atheist?

I refer you to a survey carried out at the University of Michigan in 1998, regarding the percentage of people raised in a particular religion who retained that religion into adulthood:
Protestant 90.4%
Catholic 82.3%
Jewish 86.6%
Other 70.5%
which I would say suggests strongly that religious influences received during childhood indeed are difficult to shake off.

Well maybe for some ... and not just 'religious' influences... but, believe me, I know quite a few who have somehow managed to 'shake it off'. Don't you?

I suppose you've never come across missionaries, or the Spanish Inquisition.

Actually going by your date of birth I came across quite a few missionaries before you were even born and started to read your books like there was no tomorrow. But you're right for once ... even I wasn't around in the 15th Century.

But remember, we're not talking about being "forced", we're talking about the reasons why churches like to grab people while they're young - that is what you said was tosh in Amateur51's post.

I said it was merely 'opinion' not ' fact' and it clearly is merely 'opinion' ... the 'tosh' was amateur51 congratulating Pab on a 'balanced and informative' post which was earlier demonstrated to be more fiction than fact. In restropect the word 'tosh' was, if anything, being rather kind to the content of that post, don't you think?

As Schopenhauer puts it in On Religion: "... as the capacity for believing is strongest in childhood, special care is taken to make sure of this tender age. This has much more to do with the doctrines of belief taking root than threats and reports of miracles. If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one's own existence." Is that tosh, do you think?

In my view, most definitely ... all my own experiences in life and observing that of others wholly contradicts that ... an element of 'doubt' is an essential requirement for 'faith'... but I suppose Herr Schopenhauer was entitled to his occasional 'tosh' just like everybody else!

Not that his 'tosh' was too 'occasional'. He also wrote this .. ."Women are directly fitted for acting as the nurses and teachers of our early childhood by the fact that they are themselves childish, frivolous and short-sighted"

I don't for a minute doubt his admirable bravery and huge capacity for independent thought!