Privacy and the State

[amateur51]

I agree with some of that, Pab. I think it is appalling that the massacres of Christians ... not just in the place you mention but in the Middle East as well ... has largely gone unreported in the UK. The media here seems much more concerned about 'women's rights' in Saudi Arabia or 'gay rights' issues in Russia. Christians are not reckoned to be part of the modern 'cool culture', so are simply ignored.

That's because you don't read the right newspapers or listen to the right radio broadcasts - I've been informed about these events by both The Guardian and BBC World Service.

[Pabmusic]

...Christians, for example, generally don't go around calling for others to be beheaded, at least not these days...

No. I quite agree. (Although if you work in an abortion clinic in Louisiana, or are accused of witchcraft in Nigeria it might be different.)

...I'm sure you'll agree that many of these conflicts in the east are as much tribal as religious ... the same is even true closer to home in Northern Ireland...

Not really, Scotty, since the participants themselves ascribe the conflicts to religion - Northern Ireland especially. I will agree that religion is often the cloak that masks tribal differences, but the tribal differences are so much connected with religion that it's hard to separate the two.

...Surely most 'ordinary' people of any religion ( or none) just want to live in peace and get on with their lives?...

Yes. Here I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[amateur51]

No. I quite agree. (Although if you work in an abortion clinic in Louisiana, or are accused of witchcraft in Nigeria it might be different.)

As Stephen Fry brought to our attention recently,god-fearing countries (Christian Uganda) and godless countries (Russia) can be equally violent in their treatment of members of the LGBT communities.

[Pabmusic]

As Stephen Fry brought to our attention recently,god-fearing countries (Christian Uganda) and godless countries (Russia) can be equally violent in their treatment of members of the LGBT communities.

Indeed. I was actually quite shocked by a report a few months ago that the head of the Salvation Army in the US said that gays deserved to die, because the bible says so! The Sally Ann!!

[amateur51]

Indeed. I was actually quite shocked by a report a few months ago that the head of the Salvation Army in the US said that gays deserved to die, because the bible says so! The Sally Ann!!

Astonishing isn't it. A friend, a long-standing employee of the SA, lost his job and his accommodation overnight in the 1970s when they found out that he was gay. It was not illegal to behave in that way in those days. It is now.

[scottycelt]

Indeed. I was actually quite shocked by a report a few months ago that the head of the Salvation Army in the US said that gays deserved to die, because the bible says so! The Sally Ann!!

Yes, that always seemed a most unlikely story, Pab, and, of course, surprise surprise ...

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/salvation-army-gays-put-to-death-interview.shtml

It appears the story originated from an interview with an Australian official in 2012. It was quickly (and rightly) condemned by the leaders of the Salvation Army itself.

You will always get these mavericks saying the most outrageous things, though it is fair to say that there are elements of 'extremism' amongst 'Christian' groups most notably in parts of the US. I use inverted commas here because these people seem to be overly-influenced by blood and thunder Old Testament stuff than having very much to do with the teachings and example of Christ.

These splinter groups/mavericks do not represent mainstream Christianity any more than the views of Josef Stalin or Professor Dawkins represent mainstream atheism.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

I had to look up LGBT. Thought it was a new form of sandwich.

[Richard Barrett]

I had to look up LGBT. Thought it was a new form of sandwich.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Now I don't often quote Boris Johnson, but how about this: I think the public deserves to know. The world is better for government being kept under the beady-eyed scrutiny of the media and for salient and interesting facts about public espionage being brought into the public domain. - once more positioning himself on the side of what he perceives as public opinion, as opposed to lining up behind Cameron.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Depends what Boris means by 'facts about public espionage', and who makes the disclosure(s) and when.

[Richard Barrett]

Depends what Boris means by 'facts about public espionage', and who makes the disclosure(s) and when.

This is what he means: I personally defend the Guardian's right to publish interesting information such as that Angela Merkel's phone was bugged by Barack Obama. I think that is an interesting fact (...) I don't believe that the fact that Angela Merkel's phone was bugged by the NSA does anything to jeopardise anybody's security, it's merely colossally embarrassing and it should come out.

I guess even a stopped clock shows the right time twice a day!

[An_Inspector_Calls]

If that's all he means, I'm neither bothered, nor astonished at the news. I'd be surprised if we weren't bugging.

[Mr Pee]

Verbal Terrorism....I've been chortling at that all day....

[ahinton]

If that's all he means, I'm neither bothered, nor astonished at the news. I'd be surprised if we weren't bugging.

Whether or not you personally are "bothered" or "astonished" is neither here nor there other than for you, since that is a matter for you alone.

I'm not especially "astonished" myself, nor would I be surprised if the British security services have indeed behaved and/or are behaving similarly, but the logic that determines that the more nations' security services snoop on other nations' security services, leaders et al and/or their own country's citizens the more "acceptable" such activity becomes (irrespective of the motives or anticipated results of such snooping) is lost on me and on many others.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not in principle against any and all such snooping, whichever country's security services do it; what does bother me is when this kind of activity runs out of control and is not properly scrutinised and when its perpetrators are insufficiently accountable to the governments on whose behalf they undertake it and when little or no attempt is made to justify all such action on the demonstrable grounds of national security and the interests of the citizens of the country doing it and who pay for it through their taxes.

[ahinton]

Verbal Terrorism....I've been chortling at that all day....

How sad a life you appear to lead, Mr Pee, if that's the best up with which you can come and the best that you can do.

[scottycelt]

Verbal Terrorism....I've been chortling at that all day....

Amsey can relax ...

Thanks to the Yanks listening-in to all these mobile phones the verbal terrorists have now been identified and have been issued with a long ahinton sentence ... :winkeye: