Privacy and the State

[Richard Barrett]

It easily could be argued that it was the Allies humiliating the Germans after WWI who were initially responsible for the rise of Hitler, the Holocaust etc.

Yes it could. That humiliation was certainly a contributory factor, don't you think? - and not in any way necessary.

[french frank]

Yes it could. That humiliation was certainly a contributory factor, don't you think? - and not in any way necessary.

That's what the study of history is for, surely, rather than learning the dates 1939-45?

[scottycelt]

I merely posed a question. You presuppose the answer.

I simply calculated that was the only logical reason for your question and gave my answer!

Oh, but it may be a reason. That is not the same as an excuse, or justification.

Precisely, so therefore I fail to see your point! If a 'reason' is not an 'excuse' or 'justification' it is irrelevant.

I may think I have good 'reason' to murder my wife but to hasten my nearest and dearest's demise would be an act of unspeakable cruelty and barbarity deserving of no 'understanding' whatsoever!

[Richard Barrett]

That's what the study of history is for, surely, rather than learning the dates 1939-45?

I would have thought so, yes, just as in amateur51's observation that, historically, governments have to (heaven forfend) end up negotiating with terrorists in order for there to be peace, as in Northern Ireland. Isn't that a better strategy (assuming there's a will to find one, which I've argued there isn't) than gradually constructing a 1984-like surveillance state?

[Richard Barrett]

I may think I have good 'reason' to murder my wife

But you couldn't ever actually have a reason to murder someone, right? - what a strange example to think of...

[french frank]

If a 'reason' is not an 'excuse' or 'justification' it is irrelevant.

I may think I have good 'reason' to murder my wife but to hasten my nearest and dearest's demise would be an act of unspeakable cruelty and barbarity deserving of no 'understanding' whatsoever!

Irrelevant to what? You're again using the word 'understanding' (noun) in a sense which implies sympathy. To understand the whys and wherefores of people's behaviour does not necessarily mean you sympathise, approve or condone.

[scottycelt]

But you couldn't ever actually have a reason to murder someone, right? - what a strange example to think of...

Well ... er, sorry ... it's you (and others) who are claiming the 'reason' behind murder is all-important and must be 'understood'.

Not me ... and I have to agree it's a very 'strange' argument!

[scottycelt]

Irrelevant to what? You're again using the word 'understanding' (noun) in a sense which implies sympathy. To understand the whys and wherefores of people's behaviour does not necessarily mean you sympathise, approve or condone.

So the mass-murderers tell you that they don't give a toss what you or anybody else thinks about their behaviour.

What's the next step in your quest for 'understanding' ... ?

[vinteuil]

What's the next step in your quest for 'understanding' ... ?

... to use my brain. To think. To ponder. To weigh up alternative explanations.


Is any of this beyond you?

[french frank]

Well ... er, sorry ... it's you (and others) who are claiming the 'reason' behind murder is all-important and must be 'understood'.

Not me ... and I have to agree it's a very 'strange' argument!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-16875737

He might have got more than 5 years if he hadn't been suffering from dementia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-24728165

[scottycelt]

... to use my brain. To think. To ponder. To weigh up alternative explanations.


Is any of this beyond you?

I don't think so ...

But before one can use a brain, think, ponder and weigh up alternative explanations the first essential before suddenly entering a debate is to be blessed with a brain.

[vinteuil]

But before one can use a brain, think, ponder and weigh up alternative explanations the first essential before suddenly entering a debate is to be blessed with a brain.

... which you are. Hence my surprise that you don't seem to wish to use it, to try to "understand" things. Why the wish not to understand?

[scottycelt]

... which you are. Hence my surprise that you don't seem to wish to use it, to try to "understand" things. Why the wish not to understand?

Thank you ... I thought my 'street-cred' on this forum had suddenly plummeted for a horrible moment. :ironic laugh:

What is there to further 'understand'. I 'understand' only too well when murderous thugs kill and maim innocent men. women, children and babies in prams to 'promote their cause' and threaten to do the same again if their demands are not met.

It is maybe others who need to 'understand' that just as well as those who do ...

[vinteuil]

What is there to further 'understand'. I 'understand' only too well when murderous thugs kill and maim innocent men. women, children and babies in prams to 'promote their cause' and threaten to do the same again if their demands are not met.

...

... if you understand this, can you explain to us why they do these things?

[french frank]

can you explain to us why they do these things?

I was just going to enquire whether scotty knew exactly what the word 'why' means.