Privacy and the State

[amateur51]

I see that Chancellor Merkel has got into a bate with Pres Obama now about his secret services possibly hacking into her mobile phone.

If only all these world leaders would adopt Mr Pee's Panglossian view of NSA/GCHQ, it would do their blood pressure a power of good.

[ahinton]

I see that Chancellor Merkel has got into a bate with Pres Obama now about his secret services possibly hacking into her mobile phone.

If only all these world leaders would adopt Mr Pee's Panglossian view of NSA/GCHQ, it would do their blood pressure a power of good.

Indeed - although I cannot imagine that it would dow any kind of good to anything else. OK, we have to await the hard evidence and it has to be tried and tested but, as usual, there's no smoke without fire and world leaders such as Hollande and Merkel would be taking grave risks indeed in going public over this kind of thing in the absence of sufficient evidence. Again, my view on this arises not from an anti-American stance per se, as I have little doubt that many counries are doing this kind of thing from time to time, but we need to know when it does, especially if there might be any risk that the snooping activities of one country undermines the security of another.

[Richard Barrett]

If only all these world leaders would adopt Mr Pee's Panglossian view of NSA/GCHQ, it would do their blood pressure a power of good.

Quite so. I don't see Mesdames Merkel and Rousseff happily writing off the tapping of their phones as a fair price to pay for saving the USA from international terrorism.

[scottycelt]

Am I the only only one to be much more astonished that Merkel's mobile was so apparently open to being 'tapped' as the alleged actions by the US security services?

A salutary wake-up call (!) for European leaders, some who now appear to have even more egg on their faces than President Obama!

[Richard Barrett]

Am I the only only one to be much more astonished that Merkel's mobile was so apparently open to being 'tapped' as the alleged actions by the US security services?

A salutary wake-up call (!) for European leaders, some who now appear to have even more egg on their faces than President Obama!

Ah, the argument from contributory negligence, where have we heard that before?

[scottycelt]

Ah, the argument from contributory negligence, where have we heard that before?

In the real world, probably many, many times ...

When I use a zebra crossing I always look out for speeding cars whose drugged-up drivers might break the law and mow me down, and if I don't fancy being the victim of a burglary it does seem wise to invest in a burglar alarm.

Failure to face the reality of others' possible wrongdoing is indeed a form of negligence, and can certainly contribute in a very big way to the effect of the wrongdoing if not the wrongdoing itself.

[ahinton]

In the real world, probably many, many times ...

When I use a zebra crossing I always look out for speeding cars whose drugged-up drivers might break the law and mow me down, and if I don't fancy being the victim of a burglary it does seem wise to invest in a burglar alarm.

Failure to face the reality of others' possible wrongdoing is indeed a form of negligence, and can certainly contribute in a very big way to the effect of the wrongdoing if not the wrongdoing itself.

So on that basis what exactly might you have counselled Ms Merkel to do to protect her mobile from such possible intrusion?

[Serial_Apologist]

Am I the only only one to be much more astonished that Merkel's mobile was so apparently open to being 'tapped' as the alleged actions by the US security services?

A salutary wake-up call (!) for European leaders, some who now appear to have even more egg on their faces than President Obama!

But if they've done nothing wrong, according to your position, what have they got to worry about?

[scottycelt]

So on that basis what exactly might you have counselled Ms Merkel to do to protect her mobile from such possible intrusion?

Not up to me. presumably that's what her security officials are supposed to do?

Anyway, it's officially Mrs Merkel so show the German leader some respect, please.

[scottycelt]

But if they've done nothing wrong, according to your position, what have they got to worry about?

I don't think I've ever stated that as 'my position' though if I've not committed a crime I won't worry too much at the tiny possibility of being wrongly convicted of one.

Some members would appear to have a curious antipathy to many quite wise and useful things like taking sensible precautions to try and protect oneself and strongly objecting to filling in tax-forms to receive any benefit entitlements. :winkeye:

[ahinton]

Not up to me. presumably that's what her security officials are supposed to do?

Anyway, it's officially Mrs Merkel so show the German leader some respect, please.

I have shown her no disrespect whatsoever! The point here is that if her secutiry officials are supposed to have done something that they have omitted to do, they may well be responsible for that insofar as it goes, but that's hardly the point, which instead is to ask what US thought that it was doing snooping on high ranking politicains in supposedly friendly countries, a matter which your responses carefully ignore. Would you expect to be expected to protect yourself as diligently from your supposed friends as from your supposed enemies?

[scottycelt]

I have shown her no disrespect whatsoever! The point here is that if her secutiry officials are supposed to have done something that they have omitted to do, they may well be responsible for that insofar as it goes, but that's hardly the point, which instead is to ask what US thought that it was doing snooping on high ranking politicains in supposedly friendly countries, a matter which your responses carefully ignore. Would you expect to be expected to protect yourself as diligently from your supposed friends as from your supposed enemies?

I have no idea what the US thought it was doing (allegedly). American politicians have never really hidden the fact that they believe their country's interests over-rides those of anybody else's, so I cannot honestly claim to be particularly astonished by these allegations. Often one is required to be as wary of one's 'supposed friends' as one's enemies ...

I have also even less of a clue why the leader of the most powerful country (economically) in Europe was allowed by her security team to have her mobile phone apparently such easy prey for possible 'friendly tapping'.

That was my point. It is yourself who has chosen to ignore the point not me!

[french frank]

I have also even less of a clue why the leader of the most powerful country (economically) in Europe was allowed by her security team to have her mobile phone apparently such easy prey for possible 'friendly tapping'.

Why 'apparently such easy prey'? We also have no idea what sophisticated methods were used that other national security services have never imagined. Spying on someone who is self-evidently not a terrorist, nor shielding terrorists, nor plotting any kind of damaging action against your country, possibly - who knows? - in order to further some sort of damage, e.g. commercial/economic, against them to your own benefit ... suddenly seems to make the actions of Edward Snowden seem, not excusable so much as essential.

[scottycelt]

Why 'apparently such easy prey'? We also have no idea what sophisticated methods were used that other national security services have never imagined. Spying on someone who is self-evidently not a terrorist, nor shielding terrorists, nor plotting any kind of damaging action against your country, possibly - who knows? - in order to further some sort of damage, e.g. commercial/economic, against them to your own benefit ... suddenly seems to make the actions of Edward Snowden seem, not excusable so much as essential.

I doubt we could ever accuse the Germans of technological backwardness or stupidity. Industrial as well as political espionage has always existed and will continue to do so.

The most likely explanation is that the Germans simply never imagined the US or any other close ally might resort to tapping their leader's phone calls. Now they know better.

This curious idea that nobody ever imagined such things could possibly happen until a politically-motivated young troublemaker like Snowden came along to helpfully inform an appalled world is truly ridiculous.

[Mr Pee]

Why 'apparently such easy prey'? We also have no idea what sophisticated methods were used that other national security services have never imagined. Spying on someone who is self-evidently not a terrorist, nor shielding terrorists, nor plotting any kind of damaging action against your country, possibly - who knows? - in order to further some sort of damage, e.g. commercial/economic, against them to your own benefit ... suddenly seems to make the actions of Edward Snowden seem, not excusable so much as essential.

And the key word there is "possibly".

You are seriously naive if you do not understand that everybody has been spying on everybody else- friend and foe alike- for generations, to try and gain political advantage. I am quite sure that the BND would have jumped at the chance to do exactly the same to Obama, given half a chance. They may well have been doing so- except I imagine the US President is a tad more careful with his personal security.

To suggest that Snowden's treasonable activities, which have endangered countless lives and hobbled the efforts of our security services to combat terrorism, is in any way excusable because of this latest "revelation", is complete hogwash.