Privacy and the State

[amateur51]

Meanwhile, yet more indication of the damage done by the reckless behaviour of The Guardian.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10397795/We-will-lose-terrorists-because-of-GCHQ-leaks-warns-minister.html

When will that newspaper be properly dealt with over this? To my mind, it is infinitely worse than anything of which News International papers have been accused.

"To my mind" ... that explains nothing and excuses almost everything.

What does 'infinitely worse' actually mean, I wonder.

The Telegraph's reportage seems more likely inclined to mend its fences with Dave after the MPs' expenses scandal that it 'leaked' rather than serious journalism.

James Brokenshire MP is an example of The Peter Principle in practice, I'm afraid.

Whereas these two MPs have kept up the good fight for decades:

"But the debate was labelled "McCarthyism" and "absolute scaremongering" by veteran Labour MPs David Winnick and Paul Flynn, who tried repeatedly to intervene only to have their requests rejected"

I wonder if Mr Pee would care to explain to us why it is the American politicians are taking the Guardian's line and calling the Government to accounts whereas our craven politicians are for the most part tagging along behind Mr Parker and Sir Malcolm Rifkind mouthing the same old tosh: can they all be in hope of some sort of preferment?

C'mon Pee, why do the Americans get it and the Brits don't?

[Mr Pee]

I wonder if Mr Pee would care to explain to us why it is the American politicians are taking the Guardian's line and calling the Government to accounts whereas our craven politicians are for the most part tagging along behind Mr Parker and Sir Malcolm Rifkind mouthing the same old tosh: can they all be in hope of some sort of preferment?

C'mon Pee, why do the Americans get it and the Brits don't?

Just as there are some misguided MPs over here who think that the Guardian's behaviour is justifiable, so there are some equally misguided politicians in the US who think the same, if they have even heard of that paper. There are also a large number who do not subscribe to those views, and share the more widespread belief that Snowden is a traitor who should be extradited back to the USA from his Russian bolt-hole ASAP to face up to the consequences of his actions.

[amateur51]

Just as there are some misguided MPs over here who think that the Guardian's behaviour is justifiable, so there are some equally misguided politicians in the US who think the same, if they have even heard of that paper. There are also a large number who do not subscribe to those views, and share the more widespread belief that Snowden is a traitor who should be extradited back to the USA from his Russian bolt-hole ASAP to face up to the consequences of his actions.

They don't need to have heard of the Guardian because several of their own newspapers have taken the Snowden issues on-board and run with them, Mr Pee.

Sadly for you, I fear that you're over-estimating the strength of feeling against Snowden over there; they're much more keen to know the who, why, what, where and when of the decisions made by NSA to undertake huge fishing expeditions in what they believe, as do I, to be private communications. Whistle-blowing is not regarded by Americans as the scurrilous crime that is in Westminster and Chichester.

And just run past me why you think the Russians would be interested in extraditing Mr Snowden back to USA where he can be of no use to them?

[Mr Pee]

And just run past me why you think the Russians would be interested in extraditing Mr Snowden back to USA where he can be of no use to them?

Because it would be the RIGHT thing to do, so that he could properly answer for his treason- which you admit, given that you seem to accept that he is 'useful' to the Russians- face trial, and serve whatever sentence is deemed appropriate, instead of cowering away in Russia.

And perhaps you could run past me your view on Snowden holing up in Russia, that very model of an open society, and of course one that you yourself have been roundly castigating on these very boards for its treatment of homosexualists.

[amateur51]

Because it would be the RIGHT thing to do, so that he could properly answer for his treason- which you admit, given that you seem to accept that he is 'useful' to the Russians- face trial, and serve whatever sentence is deemed appropriate, instead of cowering away in Russia.

And perhaps you could run past me your view on Snowden holing up in Russia, that very model of an open society, and of course one that you yourself have been roundly castigating on these very boards for its treatment of homosexualists.

Having had its fingers burned recently by failing to get Chelsea Manning convicted of treason, I doubt that the Administration would have another pop at it, Pee.

All I can say about Snowden's holing up in Russia is it's rather telling, in the light of many things, not least the ones that you mention. Why would any decent-minded person (and Snowden and many others regard him as such) do such a thing? Unless the alternative were to be deemed far worse?

[Richard Barrett]

The chances of Edward Snowden receiving a fair trial back in the USA are close to zero. Look what happened to Chelsea Manning. Currently Snowden is in the only place which was prepared to accept him, no doubt because its government isn't worried about US reprisals in the way for example a South American country might be, given the USA's record of violent destabilisation in that part of the world. Quite the opposite: Russia granting asylum to him is a calculated insult to the USA. The fact that its provocative foreign policies have on this occasion yielded the "right" result doesn't make them any more worthy of approval.

[amateur51]

I've recently been sent information by The Peter Tatchell Foundation about the organisation that is supporting Private Chelsea (previously Bradley) Manning, so I thought I'd share the link so that anyone who is so disposed may add their support in whatever way they see fit.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/

http://ukfriendsofbradleymanning.wordpress.com/

http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...3&e=b418926c36 Peter Tatchell Foundation

Thank you.

[amateur51]

The chances of Edward Snowden receiving a fair trial back in the USA are close to zero. Look what happened to Chelsea Manning. Currently Snowden is in the only place which was prepared to accept him, no doubt because its government isn't worried about US reprisals in the way for example a South American country might be, given the USA's record of violent destabilisation in that part of the world. Quite the opposite: Russia granting asylum to him is a calculated insult to the USA. The fact that its provocative foreign policies have on this occasion yielded the "right" result doesn't make them any more worthy of approval.

I agree.

[ahinton]

The chances of Edward Snowden receiving a fair trial back in the USA are close to zero. Look what happened to Chelsea Manning. Currently Snowden is in the only place which was prepared to accept him, no doubt because its government isn't worried about US reprisals in the way for example a South American country might be, given the USA's record of violent destabilisation in that part of the world. Quite the opposite: Russia granting asylum to him is a calculated insult to the USA. The fact that its provocative foreign policies have on this occasion yielded the "right" result doesn't make them any more worthy of approval.

Ah - sense at last! Of course that is the case.

On another aspect of all of this, I'm somewhat surprised that no one has yet mentioned the French government allegations of a large number of its citizens' calls having apparently been monitored by NSA; any takers here, peut-être?...

[amateur51]

Ah - sense at last! Of course that is the case.

On another aspect of all of this, I'm somewhat surprised that no one has yet mentioned the French government allegations of a large number of its citizens' calls having apparently been monitored by NSA; any takers here, peut-être?...

Apparently Pres.Hollande was reportedly in strip-tearing-off mode when Pres. Obama rang him on this matter recently.

[ahinton]

Apparently Pres.Hollande was reportedly in strip-tearing-off mode when Pres. Obama rang him on this matter recently.

Indeed - and it's not hard to see why. If - and I do say if - his concerns were wholly valid (and I'm not apprised of any viable and valid reasons that this should be considered not to be the case, despite othewise having little brief for Hollande), where might this leave UK and anywhere else that might be vulnerable to such snooping?

[Mr Pee]

I agree.

Of course you do.

[Mr Pee]

Apparently Pres.Hollande was reportedly in strip-tearing-off mode when Pres. Obama rang him on this matter recently.

How do you know that?

Have you been listening in?

<laugh> <laugh>

[Mr Pee]

All I can say about Snowden's holing up in Russia is it's rather telling, in the light of many things, not least the ones that you mention. Why would any decent-minded person (and Snowden and many others regard him as such) do such a thing? Unless the alternative were to be deemed far worse?

I am glad that Snowden regards himself as a decent- minded person. <erm>

I suppose the alternative would be to face due legal process, which he clearly thinks is far worse than being shown up as a self-serving hypocrite by holing up in the bosom of the very society that embodies everything he claims to find abhorrent about the West.


Funny old world.

[amateur51]

I am glad that Snowden regards himself as a decent- minded person. <erm>

I suppose the alternative would be to face due legal process, which he clearly thinks is far worse than being shown up as a self-serving hypocrite by holing up in the bosom of the very society that embodies everything he claims to find abhorrent about the West.


Funny old world.

Well I guess you could look at it like that, if you were extremely complacent ...