Privacy and the State

[ahinton]

ahem

Smokies if you will
Kippers are Herrings
Smokies are Haddock

and i'm not saying anything about why we still have them ...............

Well, fair enough, actually, but I wasn't that far out (although at least one member here might nevertheless argue that, as a Scot, I ought to have known better!)...

What seems to be studiously and determinedly ignored by a few people is that governments do not always get everything right all of the time and can never be guaranteed always to serve the interests of those who put them in place; the suggestion that exposure of certain government activities of the kind that we're discussing here must nevertheless constitute an unforgivable crime against an exonerable state seems to me to be as dangerous as it is fatuous and unrealistic.

[french frank]

governments [...] can never be guaranteed always to serve the interests of those who put them in place

A principle eloquently expounded by Machiavelli in Il Principe.

[ahinton]

A principle eloquently expounded by Machiavelli in Il Principe.

Quite - which is why the kind of blind faith in them that appears to have to go with the territory of some people's views on the subject under discussion here seems to me to be so extraordinary; democratic governments are not only elected by but made up of humans, after all...

[Mr Pee]

In the meantime, 17 members of the European Parliament have written an open letter to the US President requesting termination of Mr Manning's prosecution on the grounds of their assertion that his actions have done more to help US than to harm it; whatever you may think of the EU Parliament and of the case itself, I doubt that such an action would have been taken lightly (see http://www.heavy.com/news/2013/07/br...ct-letter-pdf/). It is a pity for UK that none of the signatories are British and I hope that this fact doesn't send any more of the wrong kind of signals to those watching the outcome of this case with concerned interest.

Well, bully for them. I suppose they have to do something every so often to justify their existence. And 17 MEPs out of, at the last count, 736 is not exactly evidence of a mass outpouring of sympathy.

Let's not forget that Manning leaked some 700,000 classified emails and other material, the vast majority of which he hadn't even read and therefore had little idea of their content. It is almost certain that his misguided activities endangered US and other military personnel, and may also have led the unmasking of US agents abroad. How this reckless behaviour might have helped the US I fail to see.

He can quite rightly expect to receive a very long prison sentence, whatever the bleatings of a few MEPs and some liberal lefties in the UK, neither of which matter a jot in the USA.

[aeolium]

What seems to be studiously and determinedly ignored by a few people is that governments do not always get everything right all of the time and can never be guaranteed always to serve the interests of those who put them in place; the suggestion that exposure of certain government activities of the kind that we're discussing here must nevertheless constitute an unforgivable crime against an exonerable state seems to me to be as dangerous as it is fatuous and unrealistic.

I think few, save the truly Panglossian, have ever expected governments to be "guaranteed always to serve the interests of those who put them in place". What is becoming a much more common attitude among the governed nowadays is that governments can almost be guaranteed never to serve the interests of those who put them in place. The prevailing view is that those in government almost invariably seek to serve their own interests and the interests of those - usually the wealthy - who are their paymasters, either collectively for the party or individually as lobbyists and potential employers.

There have occasionally been governments which did in my view serve the interests of those who had voted to put them in power. One such was the Attlee administration, whose members shared the strong popular impulse towards a fairer and more equal society combined with a strong belief in the value of public services and the integrity of public office. Even though these are vanishingly rare qualities among the larger political parties today, it does show that there has been an alternative to corruption and cynicism in government.

[ahinton]

Well, bully for them. I suppose they have to do something every so often to justify their existence. And 17 MEPs out of, at the last count, 736 is not exactly evidence of a mass outpouring of sympathy.

Let's not forget that Manning leaked some 700,000 classified emails and other material, the vast majority of which he hadn't even read and therefore had little idea of their content. It is almost certain that his misguided activities endangered US and other military personnel, and may also have led the unmasking of US agents abroad. How this reckless behaviour might have helped the US I fail to see.

He can quite rightly expect to receive a very long prison sentence, whatever the bleatings of a few MEPs and some liberal lefties in the UK, neither of which matter a jot in the USA.

"He can expect"? Under whose diktat? And who's to say what might happen even if he does! Sure, the tally of MEPs is not large (perhaps some of them are too frightened to speak out), but the very fact that any has gone public doing this kind of thing should be ignored at the priil of all of us. If he does get a massive sentence, don't - if you have any sense at all - believe that it will all then go away and be forgotten. It won't. Too many people in too many countries - not least US itself - have become too fearful to shut up and with v ery good reason. Once again, I say that your apparent implicit trust in all democratic governments to be broadly beyond reproach in serving those whom they are elected to serve is as dangerous as it is fatuous. And won't you be worried in any case about what will happen when he's let out of prison after he has served whatever sentence he might be given? And, in the meantime, to what extent do you feel confidnet in trusting his captors in keeping him there?

[Flosshilde]

I don't think that, as Mr Snowden is a US citizen, (a) could realistically happen, do you?!

Bob Geldof, a citizen of the Irish Republic, has been given an honorary knighthood, & I believe that a number of USA citizens have as well.

Interesting reading about government snooping here - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...edward-snowden and here- http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cy-nsa-snowden

[Mr Pee]

Bob Geldof, a citizen of the Irish Republic, has been given an honorary knighthood, & I believe that a number of USA citizens have as well.

Interesting reading about government snooping here - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...edward-snowden and here- http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cy-nsa-snowden

You don't really think that Snowden will be given a knighthood, do you? If you do, then you are even more removed from reality than I thought.

And as for your links, what a surprise that they're both from The Guardian, the only newspaper that still seems remotely interested in this story.

[ahinton]

Bob Geldof, a citizen of the Irish Republic, has been given an honorary knighthood, & I believe that a number of USA citizens have as well.

Interesting reading about government snooping here - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...edward-snowden and here- http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cy-nsa-snowden

Honorary, yes - but that's hardly the same thing, is it?

[ahinton]

You don't really think that Snowden will be given a knighthood, do you? If you do, then you are even more removed from reality than I thought.

I think that it is indeed most unlikely, at least in the immediate future, that he be given an honorary knighthood, although my view on this is at least in part influenced by the fact that UK is very likely as enmeshed as is US in the kinds of government sponsored capers to which he and others of whistleblowing persuasion have been drawing and will continue to draw attention, but that may not ultimately rule out the offer of such an award if what he and those others are seeking to achieve actually succeeds in focusing due attention on the nub of the problem.

And as for your links, what a surprise that they're both from The Guardian, the only newspaper that still seems remotely interested in this story.

The suggestion that only The Guardian is interested in this subject is not merely risible but unworthy of serious consideration; is BBC and any other media organisation that reports anything about the ongoing history of this in thrall to The Guardian as far as you are concerned?

I assume that you are someone who cares about his country; please try to use that national loyalty constructively to focus on what matters here in the interests of the British electorate as a whole.

Thank you.

[Pabmusic]

Bob Geldof, a citizen of the Irish Republic, has been given an honorary knighthood, & I believe that a number of USA citizens have as well.

Interesting reading about government snooping here - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...edward-snowden and here- http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...cy-nsa-snowden

Anyone can be given an 'honorary' knighthood. They aren't actually Knights (entitled to 'Sir') unless they're British or Commonwealth citizens. Yehudi Menuhin was given one. He later took British citizenship and began to be known as Sir Yehudi.

[amateur51]

Anyone can be given an 'honorary' knighthood. They aren't actually Knights (entitled to 'Sir') unless they're British or Commonwealth citizens. Yehudi Menuhin was given one. He later took British citizenship and began to be known as Sir Yehudi.

I think that Alfred Brendel, Bernard Haitink and Murray Perahia have all been so honoured

[amateur51]

Interesting piece by the acting editor-in-chief of The Moscow News, an independent online newspaper.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/02/edward-snowden-russia-little-choice

[Frances_iom]

slightly less immediate is that in near term it will bite US companies - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-654_en.htm - as Kroes puts it Why would anyone trust an American company seeing their behaviour over this - though we saw the same gross interference in globalised business when funding for Wikileaks was effectively curtailed tho it had broken no laws. It is not just the Middle East that now sees USA as a swaggering bully with it seems little regard for the Human Rights it preaches to others (eg Gitmo, the degrading treatment of PFC Manning that drew sharp criticism from its allies etc ..).

[amateur51]

Bradley Manning has been sentenced to 35 years in the Wikileaks case

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23784288

Although far less than the 60 years that the prosecution was seeking, this is surely a completely over-the-top sentence.

I hope that Bradley Manning gets some expert support and help while he explores his personal identity issues.