Privacy and the State

[amateur51]

Yes, he's clearly not going to have access to anything in future wherever he goes, his only tradable commodity is what he has now. Given that he clearly has no intention of being a martyr, could it be that he just hasn't really thought it through?

I agree RT - but he's bright enough to keep this ball in the air for a while longer yet. He has the terrible example of what has happened to Pvt.Bradley Manning at the forefront of his mind, I'd imagine.

[Mr Pee]

He has the terrible example of what has happened to Pvt.Bradley Manning at the forefront of his mind, I'd imagine.

Perhaps he should have thought about that before he betrayed his country.

[Dave2002]

I am amused that it was I think a Radio 4 comedy programme which pointed out that if you want to keep at least some of your activities private, you should cover up the camera(s) on your iPad or computer (Blu Tack suggested) - though they didn't mention the microphone as well. It is certainly possible for malware to activate the cameras, as evidenced by the behaviour of the Ukash malware - http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/viru...ton-ransomware - so I think the security forces would be up to this as well. They could also presumably activate the GPS, so get a pretty good idea of who is doing what and where - if they are foolish enough to use such kit and attach it to a wide area network.

[amateur51]

Perhaps he should have thought about that before he betrayed his country.

What he did was to show to US citizens and the rest of the world the terrible things that the US government was doing against its citizens and against the citizens of other countries. I think that was worth doing and I congratulate him. Maybe he did think about it before acting, in which that makes his actions even more remarkable.

[MrGongGong]

Perhaps he should have thought about that before he betrayed his country.

They really did wash your brain , didn't they ?
So I guess that if you discover something that is wrong you shouldn't draw it to wider attention then ?
Ethics disposed of in a simple blind adherence to "loyalty"

[ahinton]

Perhaps he should have thought about that before he betrayed his country.

But that's the whole point; he DID think about that and no doubt it encouraged him to do what he has had the immense courage to do! In any case, if what he has exposed is all true, his country will have betrayed itself and the trust that many of its citizens have put in it - and be seen to have done so thanks to the efforts of Mr Snowden and others; this "my country, right or wrong" attitude, insofar as it continues to pertain, is as dangerous as it is untenable - countries can be trusted no more than people can, not least because the former are run by the latter.

[amateur51]

As the result of a 'suspicion' that the plane of the Bolivian President Evo Morales contained Edward Snowden, the plane was diverted on a flight from Russia and forced to land in Austria.

Bolivian Defence Minister Ruben Saavedra said the US State Department may have been behind the decisions to not allow Morales’ plane to land in Portugal or fly over French air space.

“We have the suspicion that they (the two European governments) were used by a foreign power, in this case the United States, as a way of intimidating the Bolivian state and President Evo Morales,” he said.

Another Bolivian official said later that Italy had also refused permission.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/10156462/Edward-Snowden-suspicion-leads-to-Bolivian-presidents-jet-being-diverted.html

[ahinton]

As the result of a 'suspicion' that the plane of the Bolivian President Evo Morales contained Edward Snowden, the plane was diverted on a flight from Russia and forced to land in Austria.

Bolivian Defence Minister Ruben Saavedra said the US State Department may have been behind the decisions to not allow Morales’ plane to land in Portugal or fly over French air space.

“We have the suspicion that they (the two European governments) were used by a foreign power, in this case the United States, as a way of intimidating the Bolivian state and President Evo Morales,” he said.

Another Bolivian official said later that Italy had also refused permission.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-diverted.html

An update on this is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242 where the final paragraphs read
National Intelligence Director James Clapper apologised on Tuesday for telling Congress in March that the NSA did not have a policy of gathering data on millions of Americans.

He said in a letter to the Senate intelligence committee that his answer had been "clearly erroneous".
No applause for being found out there, then; perhaps he should be made to resign, in which case he could go like the - oh, never mind; presumably Mr Pee thinks that it's not only OK for governments to do this kind of thing "for the good and the protection of their citizens" and all that clapper-trap but also for them publicly and officially to lie to said citizens about what they do in this regard.

[Sydney Grew]

he betrayed his country.

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend I hope I should have the courage to betray my country" said E. M. Forster the famous Cambridge homo-sexualist. Of course he was right! My own view is that the abolition of "countries" is long overdue. The whole concept of "country" is a bogus remnant of humanity's distant tribalistic past. Make it a crime to talk about "countries" and "borders"! World government is coming, administered by incorruptible robots . . .

[ahinton]

"If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend I hope I should have the courage to betray my country" said E. M. Forster the famous Cambridge homo-sexualist.

He did indeed, although I had thought that his profession was that of author.

Of course he was right!

Indeed.

My own view is that the abolition of "countries" is long overdue. The whole concept of "country" is a bogus remnant of humanity's distant tribalistic past. Make it a crime to talk about "countries" and "borders"! World government is coming, administered by incorruptible robots . . .

You've paraded this view so many times that it's now becoming akin to a recording of a piece by Mr Glass. Whilst the concept of "countries" might up to a point be argued to be something not unlike the way in which you describe it, countries change and develop, merge and split - and this is what is happening (at least in some and not always for the better, of course) and will continue to happen for the foreseeable future because the notion of world government is not only impractical on the grounds that it would require the agreement of all countries that now exist (and that's not about to be reached) but also carries with it no guarantee of the abolition of corruption; "robots" are designed by humans, some of whom are as corrupt as governments are wont to be and, whilst the administrative prowess of many present-day governments may well be argued to lave much to be desired, the prospect of administgration by human designed "robots" hardly sounds as though it carries with it the potential for improvement!

Anyway, to return to where you began your post, Mr Snowden has not in any case "betrayed" his country but has instead revealed certain wholly unacceptable and quite possibly unconstitutional aspects of his country's government's behaviour, which is a very different matter.

[french frank]

Perhaps he should have thought about that before he betrayed his country.

In what sense did he betray his country?

There have governments, quite recently, which have had the somewhat shabby practice of kidnapping their citizens and 'disappearing' them in pursuit of their 'war on terrorists/dissident guerrillas'. Would someone revealing details to the world of these illegal government activities count as betraying their country? Or does the expression have a more nuanced meaning e.g. the illegal (but justified) activities must relate exclusively to safeguarding the security of the state? In which case ... the EU?

[ahinton]

In what sense did he betray his country?

There have governments, quite recently, which have had the somewhat shabby practice of kidnapping their citizens and 'disappearing' them in pursuit of their 'war on terrorists/dissident guerrillas'. Would someone revealing details to the world of these illegal government activities count as betraying their country? Or does the expression have a more nuanced meaning e.g. the illegal (but justified) activities must relate exclusively to safeguarding the security of the state? In which case ... the EU?

The only sense in which it might be possible to argue that Mr Snowden has betrayed his country is if breaking the law by divulging state secrets could be deemed to constitute betrayal of one's country; that said, it appears to be acceptable to one or two people here that the law may be broken in certain exceptional circumstances, but apparently only if government authorities or their agents do it, which could be taken to imply that governments are entitled to betray themselves with impunity but those whom they govern are not, the sheer illogical absurdity of which speaks eloquently for itself.

There is also now this at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23160309.

And not only that, what might be seen as the nadir of ironic absurdity and which is maybe not quite a million kilometres from this issue is to be found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23160583 - and no, 1 April it ain't...

[Sydney Grew]

A better search engine.

Members displeased with the horrid activities of Googol (or "Google" as they childishly spell it) may be interested to learn about a superior alternative, based in the Nether-lands. The name is "Ixquick." "No PRISM; no surveillance; no government back doors - you have our word on it," they proclaim. Perfectly satisfactory.

All the information is here: ixquick.com

[amateur51]

Well well well ...

The presidents of both Nicaragua and Venezuela have indicated their countries could offer political asylum to US fugitive Edward Snowden.

Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro said it would give asylum to the intelligence leaker, who is believed to be holed up in a transit area of Moscow airport.

Meanwhile Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega said his country would do so "if circumstances permit".

Wikileaks said Mr Snowden had applied to six additional countries on Friday.

The whistleblowing website said it would not name the countries "due to attempted US interference".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23201774

[french frank]

No coincidence since many of the S American countries were annoyed at the apparent US interference with the Bolivian president's jet flight over Europe.