Privacy and the State

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Like Mr Pee you see the words "Soviet Union" and your ability to read and understand seems to vanish into thin air. This is really very tiresome.

Who mentioned the Soviet Union? I saw Stalin . . .. This all rather quaint, infantile and predictable.

[french frank]

Who mentioned the Soviet Union? I saw Stalin . . .. This all rather quaint, infantile and predictable.

But the word 'Soviet' rather than 'Stalinist was used, by my count, five times in the discussion: Stalinist is not a synonym.

[Richard Barrett]

I saw Stalin . . .

and, as I remarked, a red veil descended over your eyesight or something, and you proceeded from that point to ignore what I was actually saying.

I'll put it another way: ordinary Russians who, as previously stated, were principally concerned with feeding their families, would have thought to themselves at a certain point that the increasing restrictions on individual freedom and privacy under Stalin were worth putting up with in order to protect the Soviet state from outside elements which, they were told, were hell-bent on destroying it. Likewise, there are some in the West nowadays, like you yourself for example, who are acquiescing in a rather similar process, thinking it's OK to give up privacy and the right not to be spied on because of the ever present terrorist threat to "our way of life". In Stalin's Russia that was the thin end of the wedge of course, but no doubt at that thin end there were many who thought well, if I've done nothing wrong, I have nothing to fear. And obviously they were wrong. What is it in the present situation that makes you so sure you're right?

[scottycelt]

Obviously there are those in Russia who preferred life under corrupt Stalinism to life under the corrupt capitalism they have now. Considerable numbers of people were better off then, ordinary people who were and are more concerned with having a job and feeding their families than the colour of the political system they were living in, who, back in the Soviet period, acquiesced in foregoing some freedoms such as (to take a random example!) the right not to be under constant state scrutiny, in the interest of security from an ill-defined enemy whose evil intent was underlined to them on a daily basis by their government and news media. Not so different from some contributors to this very thread in fact!

The problem with that is that many people were not fed, millions starved, and there were sights of long bread-queues in Moscow and other cities under communism. Of course the communist elite had their limousines etc just as in a capitalist system. Couple that with rigid control and intolerance of any dissent and you end up with the worst of all worlds. The Berlin Wall was not built to keep fleeing people from capitalist countries out of the old East Germany!

Precisely why Communism collapsed in Europe and Capitalism (warts and all) continues to survive. Even 'Communist China' is semi-capitalist now. The leaders there saw the writing on the wall years ago and have adapted accordingly.

[Richard Barrett]

The problem with that is that many people were not fed, millions starved, and there were sights of long bread-queues in Moscow and other cities under communism. Of course the communist elite had their limousines etc just as in a capitalist system. Couple that with rigid control and intolerance of any dissent and you end up with the worst of all worlds. The Berlin Wall was not built to keep fleeing people from capitalist countries out of the old East Germany!

Precisely why Communism collapsed in Europe and Capitalism (warts and all) continues to survive. Even 'Communist China' is semi-capitalist now. The leaders there so the writing on the wall years ago and have adapted accordingly.

I'm sure everyone here knows all that.

My point is that Stalinism didn't just fall from the sky, its rise was facilitated by the complacency of people like you who believed that the state had their best interests at heart when they started eating away at liberty and privacy.

[ahinton]

I'm sure everyone here knows all that.

My point is that Stalinism didn't just fall from the sky, its rise was facilitated by the complacency of people like you who believed that the state had their best interests at heart when they started eating away at liberty and privacy.

That, of course, is the whole point; the well-known phrase so commonly attributed to Burke fits the case very well.

[Richard Barrett]

Of course the communist elite had their limousines etc just as in a capitalist system.

Which of course is why numerous Marxist but anti-Stalinist thinkers developed a view of the Soviet Union as "state capitalist", an idea which has certainly taken on more relevance in the (otherwise hard to explain) relatively rapid transition from that system to the plutocracy they have now.

[amateur51]

The problem with that is that many people were not fed, millions starved, and there were sights of long bread-queues in Moscow and other cities under communism.

The Jarrow Marchers were not heeding the advice of the medical profession to take some regular aerobic exercise.

And while the list of clients of charitable Food Banks grows and grows, the MPs in Westminster, a place where there was recently an expenses scandal recently, are thinking of awarding themselves an eleven per cent pay increase, and the members of the House of Lords are paid £300/day attended, entirely free of income tax.

[scottycelt]

I'm sure everyone here knows all that.

Judging by some of the comments here, that is certainly not my impression.

My point is that Stalinism didn't just fall from the sky, its rise was facilitated by the complacency of people like you who believed that the state had their best interests at heart when they started eating away at liberty and privacy.

On the contrary is was facilitated by people who believed (and obviously some who still do) that state communism is a benign system 'for the people' and simply went off the rails.

Both it and Nazism described themselves as 'Socialist' aiming to bring down world capitalism. In other words, rivals for the same revolutionary crown.

'Nuff said ...

[amateur51]

Judging by some of the comments here, that is certainly not my impression.



On the contrary is was facilitated by people who believed (and obviously some who still do) that state communism is a benign system 'for the people' and simply went off the rails.

Both it and Nazism described themselves as 'Socialist' aiming to bring down world capitalism. In other words, rivals for the same revolutionary crown.

'Nuff said ...

Do you acknowledge that the activities of the USA both domestically and worldwide are doing better than anyone other nation in bringing down world capitalism?

Do you think it's a plot?

[Richard Barrett]

J In other words, rivals for the same revolutionary crown.

'Nuff said ...

To be sure, enough of your grotesquely oversimplified and ill-informed rubbish has been said! - but the more of it I see, the more it seems like exactly the kind of complacency which allows totalitarian systems to gain a foothold. Some of us have studied a bit of history in our lives, and your attitude appears to be that your ignorance is just as good as someone else's knowledge. It's an ugly fact that in today's society this is often true.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

and, as I remarked, a red veil descended over your eyesight or something, and you proceeded from that point to ignore what I was actually saying.

No red veil . . . merely responding someone rather predictably extolling the times of Stalin in large measure:

Obviously there are those in Russia who preferred life under corrupt Stalinism to life under the corrupt capitalism they have now. Considerable numbers of people were better off then, ordinary people who were and are more concerned with having a job and feeding their families than the colour of the political system they were living in, who, back in the Soviet period, acquiesced in foregoing some freedoms such as (to take a random example!) the right not to be under constant state scrutiny, in the interest of security from an ill-defined enemy whose evil intent was underlined to them on a daily basis by their government and news media. Not so different from some contributors to this very thread in fact!

But the word 'Soviet' rather than 'Stalinist was used, by my count, five times in the discussion: Stalinist is not a synonym.

You bothered to count?? I haven't counted, nor is this relevant in any way. Barrett was focusing specifically on the Stalin times and that was what I was responding to.

And beside all that, my reference was to the purges conducted by Stalin. Now unless those purges were kepy secret from the populace (which seems highly unlikely), it seems more likely that the people were more cowed by the threat of violence than their prospects of improved well-being under a surveillance government. One wonders how the communist experiment is progressing in Vietnam . . .

[An_Inspector_Calls]

To be sure, enough of your grotesquely oversimplified and ill-informed rubbish has been said! - but the more of it I see, the more it seems like exactly the kind of complacency which allows totalitarian systems to gain a foothold. Some of us have studied a bit of history in our lives, and your attitude appears to be that your ignorance is just as good as someone else's knowledge. It's an ugly fact that in today's society this is often true.

Some of us here have read a great deal of history, but perhaps not the same history as you. What is ugly is the arrogance of left-wing fascists like yourself.

[Serial_Apologist]

left-wing fascists.

You're just making up terms as you go along. Not an iota of substance apart from personal unpleasantness to what you write.

[scottycelt]

To be sure, enough of your grotesquely oversimplified and ill-informed rubbish has been said! - but the more of it I see, the more it seems like exactly the kind of complacency which allows totalitarian systems to gain a foothold. Some of us have studied a bit of history in our lives, and your attitude appears to be that your ignorance is just as good as someone else's knowledge. It's an ugly fact that in today's society this is often true.

Is your music the finest ever composed as well ... ?