Privacy and the State

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course ... without 'them' we'd all now be living under jackbooted Nazis or Communists for a start.

Like any other country, the US has many, many faults but thank God it's there!

I do so love it when you're being ironic.

[scottycelt]

Really? And how long do you think that might have lasted? "We" wouldn't likely be living under any particular régime for any great length of time but, having said that, tor what extent do you believe that our escape from being forced to live under the "jackbooted Nazis and Communists" that you mention was or is due to the activities of US? Do you really think that US was the great white light that kept Western Europe (for example) free from becoming a satellite of Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia?

Yes, though, mercifully, I wouldn't have put it quite like that ...

I'm not sure that God in particular is to be thanked for this (and especially not by those who do not believe in Him, even if they do believe in J S Bach), since God did not specifically create the United States of America (at least as far as I am aware although, as you know far more about Him than I do, I will bow to your superior knowledge of the subject if in fact I am wrong about that) but, of course, it is indeed good that it's there; that said, US is hardly represented in full by the activities of certain staff working withing its security services so, in saying this, you surely cannot be referring to those staff and to such activities in thanking God for the existence of US (and in any case what took him so long?). To what extent, for example, is Britain generally regarded as what it is as a direct consequence of the work of GCHQ, MI5, MI6 et al?

If you prefer, you can thank (or curse) the Big Bang for the existence of the US, ahinton ... not to put too fine a point on things, I'm really well past the point of caring!

[ahinton]

I'm interested that you seem to think that a few years under Nazi occupation wouldn't have been such a bad thing. How many years would have been too many for you? Five? Ten?

Then your interest should wane immediately, since I suggested (and believe) no such thing. Please re-read my post.

And of course the US was not wholly responsible for the defeat of Hitler. All the European allies and Soviet forces played their part- but the D-Day landings, which were crucial, would have been impossible to carry out without them. Surely you accept that?

Yes, of course I do - it's a fact, after all (even though they took long enought to involve themselves) - but to elevate US to the position in which it appears to see itself today is to credit it with something way above and beyond anything of the kind.

[ahinton]

If you prefer, you can thank (or curse) the Big Bang for the existence of the US, ahinton ... not to put too fine a point on things, I'm really well past the point of caring!

I don't thank the Big Bang for this, of course (since I have no such "preference" as you seek to imply), but the suggestion that you're "really well past the point of caring" is certainly most welcome!

[Richard Barrett]

of course the US was not wholly responsible for the defeat of Hitler.

The fact is that the Soviet Army was principally reponsible for the defeat of Hitler. The D-Day landings and subsequent invasions certainly served to shorten that process and to ensure that western Europe remained under US rather than Soviet influence. The USA entered the war primarily to serve its own interests. As you may know there is considerable evidence that it knew in advance about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and allowed it to happen to give a pretext for entering the war (in which Germany and Japan had a mutual assistance treaty), although as it turned out the attack was much more damaging than expected. This is not to say that any of us would prefer to have been born under fascism or Stalinism; the point is there was nothing pure about the motives of the US government then, and nor is there now.

[Mr Pee]

The fact is that the Soviet Army was principally reponsible for the defeat of Hitler. The D-Day landings and subsequent invasions certainly served to shorten that process and to ensure that western Europe remained under US rather than Soviet influence.

Precisely my point.

The USA entered the war primarily to serve its own interests. As you may know there is considerable evidence that it knew in advance about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and allowed it to happen to give a pretext for entering the war (in which Germany and Japan had a mutual assistance treaty), although as it turned out the attack was much more damaging than expected. This is not to say that any of us would prefer to have been born under fascism or Stalinism; the point is there was nothing pure about the motives of the US government then, and nor is there now.

Ah, yes. Everything the US does is part of a big conspiracy. Damn them for entering the war and helping to defeat the Nazis.

What a bunch of bastards. We'd have been better off under Hitler or Stalin.

[Richard Barrett]

This is not to say that any of us would prefer to have been born under fascism or Stalinism

We'd have been better off under Hitler or Stalin.

Do you actually read other people's posts I wonder.

The point I was making was about the motives of the US government and the fact that they are and have always been self-serving, just like those of any other government. The difference is that the US government has more resources and more weapons. This is what makes it a dangerous influence in the world. This conclusion does not require conspiracy theories.

[ahinton]

Do you actually read other people's posts I wonder.

Oh, I think that he does, but he interprets them in his own unique way which sometimes involves turning their meaning on its head to suit the maintenance of his head not only in the sand but also in the same bit of sand.

The point I was making was about the motives of the US government and the fact that they are and have always been self-serving, just like those of any other government. The difference is that the US government has more resources and more weapons. This is what makes it a dangerous influence in the world. This conclusion does not require conspiracy theories.

Indeed - and now http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24699733; is anywhere likely to escape - or indeed have escaped - such US intrusion? What possible useful and justifiable purpose can it have for doing all this?

[scottycelt]

The fact is that the Soviet Army was principally reponsible for the defeat of Hitler.

It (Soviet Army) was certainly partly responsible for that defeat. However, even if we discount that crucial adverse weather 'bad luck' for the Germans, if it hadn't been for the Allied second front the result might have been very different. So it could even be claimed the UK was principally responsible for the Nazis ultimate demise acting as an US 'aircraft carrier' for American troops fighting alongside it's own forces. Without that Hitler may well have triumphed.

To me it wouldn't have mattered whether the Nazis or Communists had succeeded without the intervention (however involuntary) of the US. Without US assistance the UK would have ended up at the mercy of either bunch of murderous thugs. The unfortunate people of Eastern Europe experienced both but are now voluntarily part of the US-dominated West and have a freedom not experienced in generations.

Of course there will always be a tiny rump of the populace that yearns for 'the good old days' of Communism or Nazism/Fascism with their enforced order, however tyrannical.

[french frank]

Of course there will always be a tiny rump of the populace that yearns for 'the good old days' of Communism or Nazism/Fascism with their enforced order, however tyrannical.

I doubt 'the populace' would yearn for tyranny of either kind.

[amateur51]

Precisely my point.



Ah, yes. Everything the US does is part of a big conspiracy. Damn them for entering the war and helping to defeat the Nazis.

What a bunch of bastards. We'd have been better off under Hitler or Stalin.

Well the US only gave us nylons, chewing gum, the collapse of Western banking and now mass undemocratic surveillance so it's 2-2 at half-time eh Mr Pee?

[amateur51]

Do you actually read other people's posts I wonder.

The point I was making was about the motives of the US government and the fact that they are and have always been self-serving, just like those of any other government. The difference is that the US government has more resources and more weapons. This is what makes it a dangerous influence in the world. This conclusion does not require conspiracy theories.

He's reading from a News International slogan list - pay no attention, Richard Barrett.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Well, the law's the law.

If the US has spied on German telephone calls, let them be charged and tried under German Law

If the US has spied on Spanish telephone calls, let them be charged and tried under Spanish Law.



Bradley Manning was charged, tried and found guilty of spying on the US.

Snowden has not be charged with any transgression, neither has Assange, so they've nothing to fear.

(By the by, the Greenpeace 30 have been arrested and charged with breaking Russian laws, let them be processed by the Russian legal system).

[scottycelt]

I doubt 'the populace' would yearn for tyranny of either kind.

I said a 'tiny rump' of the populace yearns for the 'good old days' of Communism or Nazism/Fascism which is not quite the same thing, french frank!

There are still Stalinists in Russia and Neo-Nazis in Germany. I would describe both Stalinism and Nazism as 'tyrannical', wouldn't you?

[amateur51]

Well, the law's the law.

If the US has spied on German telephone calls, let them be charged and tried under German Law

If the US has spied on Spanish telephone calls, let them be charged and tried under Spanish Law.



Bradley Manning was charged, tried and found guilty of spying on the US.

Snowden has not be charged with any transgression, neither has Assange, so they've nothing to fear.

(By the by, the Greenpeace 30 have been arrested and charged with breaking Russian laws, let them be processed by the Russian legal system).

Back o' the queue Inspector - some of us still fancy get Dubbya and the Middle East Quartet's bagman up in front of the Hague first.