Privacy and the State

[Frances_iom]

listening in is common + needs no warrant - http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57...hout-warrants/

[amateur51]

This seemed to be overlooked, so giving it a bump. Ignore it again if you wish. Forster quote is provocative, I thought...

Provocative and pertinent, jlw :bubbly:

[french frank]

This seemed to be overlooked, so giving it a bump. Ignore it again if you wish. Forster quote is provocative, I thought...

Provocative, yes, because I would take the opposite view: if my best friend turned out to be a spy for an enemy power, for example, I hope I'd have the guts to betray him/her rather than 'betray my country' (not a phrase I feel altogether comfortable with, however).

[Richard Barrett]

This seemed to be overlooked

Not commented on isn't the same thing as overlooked! Personally I don't find the Forster quote particularly relevant because the idea of loyalty or otherwise to "my country" is quite alien to my way of thinking. For me there were two extremely important points in your post. Firsly, the debt that we all owe to whistleblowers down the ages for various advances in civilisation which one might take for granted - one example from the USA being Ralph Nader's tireless pursuit of improved safety in automobiles in the 1960s despite well-documented attempts by General Motors to smear his reputation using prostitutes and indeed phone-tapping. It seems not at all unlikely that Edward Snowden's revelations will lead to at least a clarification from the US government on the hitherto clandestine way they play fast and loose with the law. Secondly you mention the "brutal suppression" of demonstrations in the UK - how much easier that would be, for a future government perhaps more inclined in that direction than the present one, when the apparatus for such massive intrusion on people's communication is already in place.

[Thropplenoggin]

There's more. Much, much more. http://www.guardian.co.uk/

[ahinton]

Not commented on isn't the same thing as overlooked! Personally I don't find the Forster quote particularly relevant because the idea of loyalty or otherwise to "my country" is quite alien to my way of thinking. For me there were two extremely important points in your post. Firsly, the debt that we all owe to whistleblowers down the ages for various advances in civilisation which one might take for granted - one example from the USA being Ralph Nader's tireless pursuit of improved safety in automobiles in the 1960s despite well-documented attempts by General Motors to smear his reputation using prostitutes and indeed phone-tapping. It seems not at all unlikely that Edward Snowden's revelations will lead to at least a clarification from the US government on the hitherto clandestine way they play fast and loose with the law. Secondly you mention the "brutal suppression" of demonstrations in the UK - how much easier that would be, for a future government perhaps more inclined in that direction than the present one, when the apparatus for such massive intrusion on people's communication is already in place.

Thank you once again! Indeed, if you didn't have to do what you do professionally, I submit that you ought to be up there putting your points in places higher and with more of a profile than this forum (by saying which of course I intend no disrespect thereto!); I just wish that the kind of well-researched and well-thought-out ideas that you put forward as you have done in this thread were taken on board in higher places for, if they were, we might all stand a far greater chance of living better and less harassed lives.

[scottycelt]

It's an age thing. The older generation was brought up to trust and respect lawyers, politicians, medical people and men (and it was always men in those days) of the cloth, and to regard their lightest utterances with the respect which they also accorded Holy Writ. We now know that many of these characters have feet of clay, and that it's always advisable to look out of the window and check if they say it's raining.

Where this argument falls down of course is that I'm not sure that Mr Pee is of that generation.

With age comes wisdom, mangerton ...

Mr Pee is obviously way ahead of his time.

Frankly, though, I think your (and my) argument may fall down badly in the opposite direction as well. I suspect the huge majority of members here are of a similar 'certain age', even the ones that believe everything they read in The Guardian.

Still, I must say I always enjoy reading ahinton's searing critiques on the contributions of R Barrett ... ... :winkeye:

[Richard Barrett]

There's more. Much, much more.

Indeed. My immediate reaction to this new load of stuff was "well they would, wouldn't they?" - governments and spies deserve each other really: if only they'd go away and play their games and leave the rest of us in peace.

[ahinton]

With age comes wisdom, mangerton ...

Only when it does...

Mr Pee is obviously way ahead of his time.

What time is that? Do you know for certain and, if so, could you please try to tell the rest of us?

Frankly, though, I think your (and my) argument may fall down badly in the opposite direction as well. I suspect the huge majority of members here are of a similar 'certain age', even the ones that believe everything they read in The Guardian.

Well, I have no idea how "certain" ages can be and, in my own case, I have even less of where I might fit into such a descriptor since I do not believe everything that I read in any newspaper, The Guardian or otherwise...

Still, I must say I always enjoy reading ahinton's searing critiques on the contributions of R Barrett ... ... :winkeye:

I presume that you know what you mean by that even if no one else does, but what I seek to do here is speak such as there may be of my mind as best I can and, if, as and when I find that someone expresses excellent sense far more effectively and convincingly than I myself do, I consider it to be my prerogative to say so; if you have a problem with that, then I cannot help you, I'm afraid...

[ahinton]

An opportunity to sit at one's computer a be counted.

...and one which, to date, has indeed been taken by almost one in every six thousand of the world's entire population and rising still; specifically, the total number of petitioners has now almost reached 1.16m. I note that there are some from Canada. That'll have to stop. President O'Boulez will surely disapprove of that quite strongly; I wonder how long before he has the troops sent in or whether he'll content himself for the time being by merely upping the snooping on that little nation to his north?...

[anotherbob]

I presume that you know what you mean by that even if no one else does,

I expect that, like me, everyone knows what SC means.

[Frances_iom]

Cut SC some slack - he hasn't yet come to terms with the Pope's announcement that the Roman Curia is run by a clique of closet gays for their own benefit

[Padraig]

I expect that, like me, everyone knows what SC means.

I suspect that you are right, ab; everyone, including the humble ahinton knows what SC means.

[ahinton]

I suspect that you are right, ab; everyone, including the humble ahinton knows what SC means.

I do indeed know what a "searing critique" is, or should be; I simply do not see how SC would assume that I'd either written one (if he's to be taken literally) or done the opposite (if he isn't) - that's all. A rather pointless comment, it seems to me.

[anotherbob]

I do indeed know what a "searing critique" is, or should be; I simply do not see how SC would assume that I'd either written one (if he's to be taken literally) or done the opposite (if he isn't) - that's all. A rather pointless comment, it seems to me.

Made me smile, so not entirely pointless.